So the guidelines below are completely ignored?
I thought Dirac Live is still the base layer and ART is just on top of it? Are these calibration steps no longer required?
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Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac
- Thread starter Flak
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I thought Dirac Live is still the base layer and ART is just on top of it? Are these calibration steps no longer required?
Looks good to me, they use the word roughly similar. Tips and tricks at the bottom shows why it can be beneficial to boost the sub volume a little. My first crack I made them all equal and in my 4800 my subs were +.5 and -1, I just remeasured 1/1 and let the subs rise a little and now I’m -8 in the AVR trim for both. It did not make a difference to me in sound either way.
This is a great point. I do have a very large room im trying to fill up. Id imagine going separate power amp in future wouldnt hurt. I have some homework to do..
Same situation here with the X3800H AVR. Perhaps it is true what others have posted that anything smaller than a 5.1.4 setup can't exceed the allowable filter capacity of the unit but it doesn't make sense. The filters should show regardless of the system configuration. I've sent a message to DL helpdesk regarding this issue but no response from Dirac yet.
Agree. 90Hz seems a little high. I say 70Hz is the magic number for him. ART default sets my mains at 50Hz, and I move the FSL to 70Hz and the driver are happy.
I would add that he can do minimal level support, like -5, or -4. This is how I have my mains and surrounds supporting subs and the drivers seem to be behaving.
The last time I briefly bottomed a woofer I had my mains at 30Hz everywhere (meaning supporting others there as well) and full -24 level for themselves. I’m running the default 50Hz currently with a lot of support and I’m not seeing much excursion even at + volume dial levels so that’s good.
@Oddball, ya ... I thought of that but I don't yet have the X6800H that I'm hoping to upgrade to. I'll have a dig around for your post
I was hoping there was a separate setting for individual speaker frequency range capability completed divorced from its settings for support of other speakers.
My understanding is that changing the "F-support low" frequency setting will mean that speaker will support other speakers in the group (or in other groups) down to that frequency. To me, unless you pull that speaker out on its own into a group which I don't necessarily want to do, it will have a different effect to what I'm referring to.
KenMasters
Active Member
Well, you either want ART or you don't. But ART can be made to operate in a fashion that supports the behaviour you would like.
I have a similar setup to you and prior to ART I also had a high crossover with my LS50s, higher than yours in fact. With ART, because I have multiple subs, I have been able to keep a similar relationship between subs and speakers while still reaping the benefit:
Here you can see the support the speakers are providing doesn't extend beyond their own roll-off.
Happy New Year, everyone
Today I experimented with the Dirac Live ART support range to see how much output I could extract from the Reference 1 Meta.
With my usual 50–150 Hz ART support range, the speakers produce significant distortion at this volume level. However, when I narrowed the ART support range to 140–150 Hz, I was able to drive the KEF Reference 1 Meta to much higher output levels.
Until now, I had created a special preset with Dirac disabled in order to achieve very high playback levels, but with this ART configuration, that no longer seems necessary.
I was genuinely impressed by the sound this configuration delivered.
Today I experimented with the Dirac Live ART support range to see how much output I could extract from the Reference 1 Meta.
With my usual 50–150 Hz ART support range, the speakers produce significant distortion at this volume level. However, when I narrowed the ART support range to 140–150 Hz, I was able to drive the KEF Reference 1 Meta to much higher output levels.
Until now, I had created a special preset with Dirac disabled in order to achieve very high playback levels, but with this ART configuration, that no longer seems necessary.
I was genuinely impressed by the sound this configuration delivered.
ban25
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Akemashite omedetou! (I'd type it in Kana but I don't have the language pack installed on this laptop). It does seem to be perhaps a rule of thumb that the best support speakers are those with the highest output / SPL in the bass range, therefore favoring subwoofers over even "full range" speakers.Happy New Year, everyone
Today I experimented with the Dirac Live ART support range to see how much output I could extract from the Reference 1 Meta.
With my usual 50–150 Hz ART support range, the speakers produce significant distortion at this volume level. However, when I narrowed the ART support range to 140–150 Hz, I was able to drive the KEF Reference 1 Meta to much higher output levels.
Until now, I had created a special preset with Dirac disabled in order to achieve very high playback levels, but with this ART configuration, that no longer seems necessary.
I was genuinely impressed by the sound this configuration delivered.
View attachment 502994
View attachment 502995
View attachment 502996
View attachment 502997
I think very high SPL is something I can always achieve with the JBL system, but I was still genuinely impressed by how good the KEFs sound at high volume.
At normal listening levels, the 50–150 Hz support range sounds better than 140–150 Hz, but even with 140–150 Hz the quality is still very solid.
I suspect the four JTR subs placed in the corners are doing a good job supporting localization.
あけましておめでとう
That does seem to be the case. Subwoofers really feel like the best support speakers.
With a 50–150 Hz support range, I think even a single subwoofer already gives very good sound quality, but with such an extreme setting, multiple subs seem to be making a big difference.
I’ve read much of what has been posted on ART on ASR (there’s more on AVSForum than I can go through, so I need to search there rather than trying to read everything). I am planning on upgrading to a new processor and want to better understand the difference between a Marantz (or Denon) setup and a Stormaudio setup in our system (see below). Amps are not a concern if I move from current receiver to a processor. LCR are covered with Nilai mono and will get class D for surrounds.
Living room area is open to large other space. Seating position is about centered in the room (front to back & side to side). This is our main living space, not a dedicated theater room. System is used for TV, streaming, movies, and music.
Speaker setup:
Front LR: KEF Reference 3 Meta (ported, substantial bass capability) - 2 subs are located fairly close to these
Center: KEF Reference 2 Meta (sealed, rolls off early)
Surrounds (to side of listening position): KEF R3 Meta (ported, limited bass) - 2 subs are located fairly close to these
Rear surrounds: KEF LS50 Meta (very limited bass) - note, no subwoofers in back of room, they are front and middle
Ceiling/overhead/Atmos: 4x KEF Ci250RRM-THX (10” woofer, more bass than a regular ceiling speaker, flat to around 50 Hz)
Subs: 4x Revel B112v2 (sealed 12”, more than enough output for our preferences) - 2 by the fronts and 2 by the side surrounds
Current system is using a Denon 8500 & Audyssey with only the front subs, various tweaking in the iOS app, but haven’t spent time on it knowing I want to move to an ART-capable platform. Main source component for everything is Apple TV.
My understanding is that the Marantz ART setup will use 1 sub for LFE and support it with the others. Will this setup make use of the multiple subs for evening out the peaks and nulls and help with overall output? What happens with a stereo LR signal. Will the bass primarily route to 1 sub or multiple? Is the default Dirac ART setup substantially limiting for a multi sub setup?
Stormaudio offers additional bass options, filter number, and setup flexibility. It comes at a higher cost and we give up some things that are handy in a living room setup (HDMI CEC & headphone jack with system muting). I am not too concerned about these if it makes much better use of our speakers. I have a separate unused headphone amp that I can use and we would get used to or workaround lack of CEC.
Thanks for your help.
Living room area is open to large other space. Seating position is about centered in the room (front to back & side to side). This is our main living space, not a dedicated theater room. System is used for TV, streaming, movies, and music.
Speaker setup:
Front LR: KEF Reference 3 Meta (ported, substantial bass capability) - 2 subs are located fairly close to these
Center: KEF Reference 2 Meta (sealed, rolls off early)
Surrounds (to side of listening position): KEF R3 Meta (ported, limited bass) - 2 subs are located fairly close to these
Rear surrounds: KEF LS50 Meta (very limited bass) - note, no subwoofers in back of room, they are front and middle
Ceiling/overhead/Atmos: 4x KEF Ci250RRM-THX (10” woofer, more bass than a regular ceiling speaker, flat to around 50 Hz)
Subs: 4x Revel B112v2 (sealed 12”, more than enough output for our preferences) - 2 by the fronts and 2 by the side surrounds
Current system is using a Denon 8500 & Audyssey with only the front subs, various tweaking in the iOS app, but haven’t spent time on it knowing I want to move to an ART-capable platform. Main source component for everything is Apple TV.
My understanding is that the Marantz ART setup will use 1 sub for LFE and support it with the others. Will this setup make use of the multiple subs for evening out the peaks and nulls and help with overall output? What happens with a stereo LR signal. Will the bass primarily route to 1 sub or multiple? Is the default Dirac ART setup substantially limiting for a multi sub setup?
Stormaudio offers additional bass options, filter number, and setup flexibility. It comes at a higher cost and we give up some things that are handy in a living room setup (HDMI CEC & headphone jack with system muting). I am not too concerned about these if it makes much better use of our speakers. I have a separate unused headphone amp that I can use and we would get used to or workaround lack of CEC.
Thanks for your help.
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The D&M options all have the same processing power and are all limited to 98 filters for ART...
With all to all support - that pretty much limits you to 9 channels maximum (including subs) being involved in support duties.
I had noticeable improvements when I removed my 4 height speakers from support (they were contributing nothing, but were chewing up filter bandwidth and pushing the setup over its limit) - my setup is 5.2.4 - with the 5.2 speakers providing support (and supporting the 4 height speakers) the results were exemplary.
The key thing I want to point out is that the StormAudio and Monoproice HPT1 processors don't have a similar filter numbers constraint - their more powerful DSP's allow them to use a lot more support channels to their full potential.
Having said that - the performance of my setup on a Denon X4800 using ART is now exemplary - fantastic sound... I've been relistening to many favourites and noticing bass details that were previously hidden!
The X3800+ART provides truly astounding value when put up against the StormAudio or even flagship D&M models... and the rest of the range is no slouch either!
It isn't so much that ART uses a single sub for LFE - but that it defines your first sub "group" as the LFE group.
All speakers (including subs) that cover a specific frequency range (within the ART handled range of 20Hz to 150Hz) can contribute to that channel.
So in my case (5.2.4) - the Sub / LFE group has 2 x Gallo TR1 subs - and is further supported by 2 x Gallo Mains (L/R - down to 28Hz), and 2 x B&O Surrounds (SL/SR down to 40Hz) - the end result is the setup behaves as it it had 4 small subs and 2 medium subs - rather than a 2 or 1 sub setup.
The subs are also involved in not just the LFE channel, but are part of all the other supported channels (which is all of them) - and the mains/surrounds are also supporting other speakers.
When my "L" main is playing - the actual speakers active include L, R, C, SL, SR, SW1, SW2.... but the audio-psychic impression, is that the L speaker is playing along - the others are not obviously audible / doing anything.
End Result:
Similarly when my LFE channel is playing, the active speakers are L, R, SL, SR, SW1, SW2
End Result:
Here is the LFE before I setup ART:
Final comment - as I pointed out earlier with my comment about the X3800 with ART - the performance available at this price level is astounding!
Can you do better at StormAudio level... yes... but as with issues such as SINAD audibility - diminishing returns kick in viciously at that level.
You can achieve 95% of what you can get on such premium platforms, at 1/10th the price.
I would opt for ease of use, utility for all participants concerned, rather than out and out performance.... as long as all the competitors in this comparison achieved a similar high level of base performance... which in RoomEQ/Processing terms I believe they do!
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In MIMO control, it is not correct to think in terms of one speaker being supported by others. This applies not only to subwoofers, but also when full-range speakers are involved. All speakers cooperate with each other, and there is no master–slave relationship.
Using multiple subwoofers increases the available output headroom, but depending on their performance and placement, ART may determine that some speakers are not really needed and therefore assign them very little. Please take a look at the graphs to see how my four subwoofers are actually being used by ART.
Aside from the maximum number of support speakers that can be assigned, Denon/Marantz ART and StormAudio ART are essentially the same. For reference, Denon/Marantz supports up to 96 support speakers, which I personally find more than sufficient. Some people may feel this is not enough, but in my case I am only using around 60.
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Hi dlaloum, it looks like the AVR-X4800H has passed the dlaloum test. You should put the certificate up on the wall.The D&M options all have the same processing power and are all limited to 98 filters for ART...
With all to all support - that pretty much limits you to 9 channels maximum (including subs) being involved in support duties.
I had noticeable improvements when I removed my 4 height speakers from support (they were contributing nothing, but were chewing up filter bandwidth and pushing the setup over its limit) - my setup is 5.2.4 - with the 5.2 speakers providing support (and supporting the 4 height speakers) the results were exemplary.
The key thing I want to point out is that the StormAudio and Monoproice HPT1 processors don't have a similar filter numbers constraint - their more powerful DSP's allow them to use a lot more support channels to their full potential.
Having said that - the performance of my setup on a Denon X4800 using ART is now exemplary - fantastic sound... I've been relistening to many favourites and noticing bass details that were previously hidden!
The X3800+ART provides truly astounding value when put up against the StormAudio or even flagship D&M models... and the rest of the range is no slouch either!
It isn't so much that ART uses a single sub for LFE - but that it defines your first sub "group" as the LFE group.
All speakers (including subs) that cover a specific frequency range (within the ART handled range of 20Hz to 150Hz) can contribute to that channel.
So in my case (5.2.4) - the Sub / LFE group has 2 x Gallo TR1 subs - and is further supported by 2 x Gallo Mains (L/R - down to 28Hz), and 2 x B&O Surrounds (SL/SR down to 40Hz) - the end result is the setup behaves as it it had 4 small subs and 2 medium subs - rather than a 2 or 1 sub setup.
The subs are also involved in not just the LFE channel, but are part of all the other supported channels (which is all of them) - and the mains/surrounds are also supporting other speakers.
When my "L" main is playing - the actual speakers active include L, R, C, SL, SR, SW1, SW2.... but the audio-psychic impression, is that the L speaker is playing along - the others are not obviously audible / doing anything.
End Result:
View attachment 503186
Similarly when my LFE channel is playing, the active speakers are L, R, SL, SR, SW1, SW2
End Result:
View attachment 503187
Here is the LFE before I setup ART:
View attachment 503189
To be fair, Storm also has some clear strengths. Its large channel count and very flexible mapping are impressive,
allowing you to expand and play back content using a large number of speakers.
With Denon/Marantz, the maximum number of base layer channels is 9, but with Auro the front wides are not used, so it is effectively 7.
With Storm, the base layer can be expanded up to 13 channels.
Storm also does not impose a strict limit on the number of subwoofer channels, allowing
users to use as many subwoofers as they like. This makes it possible to use a larger number of channels and speakers as support speakers within ART.
Personally, I don’t think having a very large number of support speakers is necessary,
but I understand that some people simply want to use as many support speakers as possible.
allowing you to expand and play back content using a large number of speakers.
With Denon/Marantz, the maximum number of base layer channels is 9, but with Auro the front wides are not used, so it is effectively 7.
With Storm, the base layer can be expanded up to 13 channels.
Storm also does not impose a strict limit on the number of subwoofer channels, allowing
users to use as many subwoofers as they like. This makes it possible to use a larger number of channels and speakers as support speakers within ART.
Personally, I don’t think having a very large number of support speakers is necessary,
but I understand that some people simply want to use as many support speakers as possible.
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