Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

[JRowland]

The number I can check is the max number, it won't change when support or groups are changed.
So, in order to (maybe) figure this out, you would need to check what number a real 5.2.0 or 5.1.0 setup shows with full support enabled.

5.2.0 here and with the default full support filter count does not even show up using a Denon 4800. I haven’t been able to make any combination show filter count. I thought I could see the number in the remote app but realized I named my tunes by number so the number I saw was the tune not filter count. If there is a way to see it that I am just unaware of let me know and I’ll tell you the number for 5.2.0

 

[EWL5]

5.2.0 here and with the default full support filter count does not even show up using a Denon 4800. I haven’t been able to make any combination show filter count. I thought I could see the number in the remote app but realized I named my tunes by number so the number I saw was the tune not filter count. If there is a way to see it that I am just unaware of let me know and I’ll tell you the number for 5.2.0

I think a recent beta of Dirac software forces the filter count to show now but hopefully @dlaloum can confirm this.

 

[smygolf]

As a side note to the msg above - try and change wich sub that works as LFE

I have 2 jbl 4645C in a baffle wall and one 4645C on the wall behind MLP (no baffle wall support)
Before ART i had the front subs in parallel and with ART each are in a single ch + the rear sub

As a test i put them back in parallel so 1ch and rear sub second ch
For some reason ART put a hell of a support on the rear sub and front subs did not do much work at all
Without baffle wall support the rear sub was close to reach its max
I never measured the amount of dist but i suppose there was a lot of it

 

[smygolf]

I think a recent beta of Dirac software forces the filter count to show now but hopefully @dlaloum can confirm this.

I have the latest beta and a Cinema 50 - no filters shows in a 5,3 setup

 

[JRowland]

I think a recent beta of Dirac software forces the filter count to show now but hopefully @dlaloum can confirm this.

Just made sure but nope, no filter count 3.14

 

[TimoJ]

Maybe the filter count is shown only when you have a speaker setup that can use more filters than what's available?

 

[KenMasters]

Maybe the filter count is shown only when you have a speaker setup that can use more filters than what's available?

That was my conclusion - only shows the filter count if there is need to pay them mind.

 

[jpqpi]

I have heard that with D&M based ART there is no fixed crossover in place for each speaker. ChatGPT insists that it is still there separate to ARTs support settings but I can't find a definitive answer online or in manuals. Can anyone with a Denon or Marrantz AVR with ART verify?

My concern is how ART decides the lower frequency cutoff of speakers playing their own channel if there is no way to set a fixed crossover. FYI, I'm not talking about the "support" settings for other speakers/groups here which to me is a separate thing. Does anyone know how ART decides how low speakers will play their own channel down to before fully crossing over to the sub? I guess it automatically picks this capability up from the mic measurement sweeps but it is very unclear if this is visible to us and also if it can be adjusted/tweaked for manual optimizations. Maybe this is accomplished with separate target curves for individual groups? With a rolloff at a chosen low frequency?

My reasoning:
In order to accommodate higher SPLs and lower distortion/stress on the main speakers, I currently have a fixed crossover quite high at 120hz (LCR = LS50 Metas, L/R surrounds = Kef e301 "eggs"), this is because I want the sub (currently a SVS SB2000 pro but may add more) to do as much heavy lifting as possible where it is very capable. This is a tradeoff agaisnst sub localization but I don't actually notice this in my room as the sub is very close to the mains.

The way I see it ART works well tying the subs to the speakers they are supporting (especially with multiple subs), ideally I'd like to set a hard LF cutoff of say 100-120hz for the LCRs/surrounds and let ART do its thing all the way up to 150hz. This would further drive down main speaker distortion at high SPL. (For those that don't know, Amir's testing was very positive for LS50 Metas apart from struggling with distortion below 150hz at high SPL and I'm trying to optimise for this fact).

 

[KenMasters]

I have heard that with D&M based ART there is no fixed crossover in place for each speaker. ChatGPT insists that it is still there separate to ARTs support settings but I can't find a definitive answer online or in manuals. Can anyone with a Denon or Marrantz AVR with ART verify?

My concern is how ART decides the lower frequency cutoff of speakers playing their own channel if there is no way to set a fixed crossover. FYI, I'm not talking about the "support" settings for other speakers/groups here which to me is a separate thing. Does anyone know how ART decides how low speakers will play their own channel down to before fully crossing over to the sub? I guess it automatically picks this capability up from the mic measurement sweeps but it is very unclear if this is visible to us and also if it can be adjusted/tweaked for manual optimizations. Maybe this is accomplished with separate target curves for individual groups? With a rolloff at a chosen low frequency?

My reasoning:
In order to accommodate higher SPLs and lower distortion/stress on the main speakers, I currently have a fixed crossover quite high at 120hz (LCR = LS50 Metas, L/R surrounds = Kef e301 "eggs"), this is because I want the sub (currently a SVS SB2000 pro but may add more) to do as much heavy lifting as possible where it is very capable. This is a tradeoff agaisnst sub localization but I don't actually notice this in my room as the sub is very close to the mains.

The way I see it ART works well tying the subs to the speakers they are supporting (especially with multiple subs), ideally I'd like to set a hard LF cutoff of say 100-120hz for the LCRs/surrounds and let ART do its thing all the way up to 150hz. This would further drive down main speaker distortion at high SPL. (For those that don't know, Amir's testing was very positive for LS50 Metas apart from struggling with distortion below 150hz at high SPL and I'm trying to optimise for this fact).

There's adjustable upper and lower support bounds for each speaker. You can use this to achieve the behaviour you're looking for. You can also tweak the support levels in order to place emphasise on the subs over the speakers.

 

[Oddball]

I have heard that with D&M based ART there is no fixed crossover in place for each speaker. ChatGPT insists that it is still there separate to ARTs support settings but I can't find a definitive answer online or in manuals. Can anyone with a Denon or Marrantz AVR with ART verify?

My concern is how ART decides the lower frequency cutoff of speakers playing their own channel if there is no way to set a fixed crossover. FYI, I'm not talking about the "support" settings for other speakers/groups here which to me is a separate thing. Does anyone know how ART decides how low speakers will play their own channel down to before fully crossing over to the sub? I guess it automatically picks this capability up from the mic measurement sweeps but it is very unclear if this is visible to us and also if it can be adjusted/tweaked for manual optimizations. Maybe this is accomplished with separate target curves for individual groups? With a rolloff at a chosen low frequency?

My reasoning:
In order to accommodate higher SPLs and lower distortion/stress on the main speakers, I currently have a fixed crossover quite high at 120hz (LCR = LS50 Metas, L/R surrounds = Kef e301 "eggs"), this is because I want the sub (currently a SVS SB2000 pro but may add more) to do as much heavy lifting as possible where it is very capable. This is a tradeoff agaisnst sub localization but I don't actually notice this in my room as the sub is very close to the mains.

The way I see it ART works well tying the subs to the speakers they are supporting (especially with multiple subs), ideally I'd like to set a hard LF cutoff of say 100-120hz for the LCRs/surrounds and let ART do its thing all the way up to 150hz. This would further drive down main speaker distortion at high SPL. (For those that don't know, Amir's testing was very positive for LS50 Metas apart from struggling with distortion below 150hz at high SPL and I'm trying to optimise for this fact).

I actually never digged so deep into it to give you an answer, and even then it might not be the universal answer. My bed channels are all good for 50hz-150hz support range, so not much to explore there.

One thing that might give you a clue as to what mains are doing would be to turn off the subs and REW the mains. Think I posted a screenshot of that vs full shebang in this or similar threads. If you see what you don't like next step would be to adjust support ranges and levels to hopefully get you where you want to be. And the boring stuff - measure at every step to see where you are heading to.

 

[dlaloum]

I think a recent beta of Dirac software forces the filter count to show now but hopefully @dlaloum can confirm this.

I'm running the 3.14 beta - and it shows the filter count for me...

But others running the same 3.14 beta are not seeing the filter count - a bit of a mistery

 

[JRowland]

Maybe the filter count is shown only when you have a speaker setup that can use more filters than what's available?

That’s my guess, I have each speaker in its own group getting full support except subs stay left and right save the center channel currently. Nothing I’ve done has shown my dots/filter count. I’m not complaining, at all

 

[JRowland]

I have heard that with D&M based ART there is no fixed crossover in place for each speaker. ChatGPT insists that it is still there separate to ARTs support settings but I can't find a definitive answer online or in manuals. Can anyone with a Denon or Marrantz AVR with ART verify?

My concern is how ART decides the lower frequency cutoff of speakers playing their own channel if there is no way to set a fixed crossover. FYI, I'm not talking about the "support" settings for other speakers/groups here which to me is a separate thing. Does anyone know how ART decides how low speakers will play their own channel down to before fully crossing over to the sub? I guess it automatically picks this capability up from the mic measurement sweeps but it is very unclear if this is visible to us and also if it can be adjusted/tweaked for manual optimizations. Maybe this is accomplished with separate target curves for individual groups? With a rolloff at a chosen low frequency?

My reasoning:
In order to accommodate higher SPLs and lower distortion/stress on the main speakers, I currently have a fixed crossover quite high at 120hz (LCR = LS50 Metas, L/R surrounds = Kef e301 "eggs"), this is because I want the sub (currently a SVS SB2000 pro but may add more) to do as much heavy lifting as possible where it is very capable. This is a tradeoff agaisnst sub localization but I don't actually notice this in my room as the sub is very close to the mains.

The way I see it ART works well tying the subs to the speakers they are supporting (especially with multiple subs), ideally I'd like to set a hard LF cutoff of say 100-120hz for the LCRs/surrounds and let ART do its thing all the way up to 150hz. This would further drive down main speaker distortion at high SPL. (For those that don't know, Amir's testing was very positive for LS50 Metas apart from struggling with distortion below 150hz at high SPL and I'm trying to optimise for this fact).

If you cut say your mains out into their own groups and assign one sub and the main as the only support you get a traditional crossover and the show filters tab shows it. Could be 80, 100, 60, the AI decides and as you change any settings it reconfigures. It seems to just work. As you add speakers you see multiple crossovers sometimes, show filters gives you a good look at what is playing normal content and at what level. It’s very easy to understand when you look at it and play with it. With just a main and a sub there (to my ears) is not much difference between audyssey. As you add support is where the magic starts to happen, with multiples playing it smooths things out.

 

[tifune]

If you cut say your mains out into their own groups and assign one sub and the main as the only support you get a traditional crossover and the show filters tab shows it.

Can you post a screenshot? I'm not able to reproduce this

 

[JRowland]

Can you post a screenshot? I'm not able to reproduce this

I have to go cook so I can’t make just a sub and a main but here’s an older measurement of my right main being supported by center in aqua, itself in green, the right surround in purple, and the right sub in pink. Ignore the yellow lines, that is as measured response, corrected response, and spread making it messy and hard to read. I’ll get you a better one after dinner if you still need it. The support speakers play the right main signal at the levels shown. Combined you get a db boost so they all show low but the response is correct to target. I run a curtain so the right side is all tinted and not corrected.

 

[JRowland]

Can you post a screenshot? I'm not able to reproduce this

Ok here is my front right, it is confusing as the line on the graph is green but the slider controlling the range is yellow. It is being supported by the right sub with the purple lines and aqua slider. I shut the sub down at 60Hz with that slider and started my main at 40Hz.

Here is the same but with the measured response of my right main in yellow so you can see the boosts and cuts.

Next you add a support, here is the center in purple (same as the sub unfortunately).

That’s how you build a speaker (channel) with ART, add support till you are happy.

 

[madmortar]

Guys hopeful for your help. Running into some serious bottoming out issues with my Klipsch RP-8000F towers while watching movies, AVR is a DENON 4800h. This has happened on multiple movies randomly but recently watching Eddington on HBO, with volume around -8.5, a scene where the song "Fireworks" is playing and as you can see in attached video...horrible. At first I thought the speakers were blown but in fact this seems to be an issue that is isolated to running DIRAC ART. Here is the situation..

If I play Firework Song via Amazon Music App on the TV

-14db or so, anything higher was crazy loud (this is goes to show how much reduction HBO app does on sound quality via a movie). Turned off all calibration and subs, full range to the towers only. And.... everything sounded fine and minimum movement on the woofers. Then, I switched back to DIRAC ART and played the song again. And.. everything sounded fine and minimum movement on the woofers (keeping in mind I am still playing the song through Amazon App),

Then with DIRAC ART still engaged, I switched to the HBO app and played the movie Eddington again, at the scene where Fireworks is playing. And... same issue as in my original post. Horrible sound like the woofer is bottoming out and the woofer is moving in/out like CRAZY...

What this tells me is that DIRAC ART is demanding an incredible amount from the speakers to send out cancellation frequencies etc when watching a movie (DOLBY ATMOS). And either the klipsch speakers just cant handle it, or my AVR doesnt have the power to send to ensure everything plays clean. Either way, my focus is now on speaking with DIRAC vs. Klipsch.

As info, I went back into the DIRAC software and increased the low support by +10 until the noise went away. It was originally at 50hz low support (my in room response showed these speakers getting down to 30hz so I originally thought 50hz was fine), and landed on 90hz at which time the woofer issue stopped.

Thoughts? Shouldnt the speakers be able to handle this? Is something wrong with my DIRAC ART calibration that would request SO much bass that the movement is this extreme in my towers? Finally.. is moving the lower support up to 90hz the right move OR should I keep it lower but reduce the actual support / demand level from the stock -18db?

First time user of this forum...go easy on me..

 

[Dj7675]

Guys hopeful for your help. Running into some serious bottoming out issues with my Klipsch RP-8000F towers while watching movies, AVR is a DENON 4800h. This has happened on multiple movies randomly but recently watching Eddington on HBO, with volume around -8.5, a scene where the song "Fireworks" is playing and as you can see in attached video...horrible. At first I thought the speakers were blown but in fact this seems to be an issue that is isolated to running DIRAC ART. Here is the situation..

If I play Firework Song via Amazon Music App on the TV

-14db or so, anything higher was crazy loud (this is goes to show how much reduction HBO app does on sound quality via a movie). Turned off all calibration and subs, full range to the towers only. And.... everything sounded fine and minimum movement on the woofers. Then, I switched back to DIRAC ART and played the song again. And.. everything sounded fine and minimum movement on the woofers (keeping in mind I am still playing the song through Amazon App),

Then with DIRAC ART still engaged, I switched to the HBO app and played the movie Eddington again, at the scene where Fireworks is playing. And... same issue as in my original post. Horrible sound like the woofer is bottoming out and the woofer is moving in/out like CRAZY...

What this tells me is that DIRAC ART is demanding an incredible amount from the speakers to send out cancellation frequencies etc when watching a movie (DOLBY ATMOS). And either the klipsch speakers just cant handle it, or my AVR doesnt have the power to send to ensure everything plays clean. Either way, my focus is now on speaking with DIRAC vs. Klipsch.

As info, I went back into the DIRAC software and increased the low support by +10 until the noise went away. It was originally at 50hz low support (my in room response showed these speakers getting down to 30hz so I originally thought 50hz was fine), and landed on 90hz at which time the woofer issue stopped.

Thoughts? Shouldnt the speakers be able to handle this? Is something wrong with my DIRAC ART calibration that would request SO much bass that the movement is this extreme in my towers? Finally.. is moving the lower support up to 90hz the right move OR should I keep it lower but reduce the actual support / demand level from the stock -18db?

First time user of this forum...go easy on me..

Are you supporting LFE with your mains?

 

[madmortar]

Are you supporting LFE with your mains?

I am running two SVS PB-2000pros, and yes my default DIRAC art has all my speakers supporting both subs (I suppose this is what you are asking?). I turned off support from my center and surrounds, and had support from my mains originally at 50hz for low end (this caused the issue) but when I increased to 90hz the issue went away.

 

[JRowland]

@madmortar you can move the mains up (90Hz seems extreme to me) or lower their support level. Also you can support less with them, you have a lot of options. I didn’t listen but the cone movement looked normal to me for loud.