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Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

I think we need to be careful to extrapolate your room, speakers, configuration to making a statement that if you use max or near max filters, you will have poor results (either objective or subjective). There seems to be just as many that have great results and are happy at or near the max. With so many variables regarding speaker capabilities, locations of speakers, rooms, and personal preference it all seems quite difficult to make definitive statements one way or the other.
Thanks for taking the time to try different things with your system, measure, and report your findings.
One thing that might be interesting, with any of your configurations is to see the affect of spl on ART performance. If/when you do your next set of measurements, maybe take post measurements at 3 different SPL’s. It would be interesting if the results stay the same or if, as some speakers get closer to their limits, results get worse at higher spl’s. It would make sense, that the louder you listen, the more conservative you need to be on setting the lower limits of frequency support.
Very good point. My experience is also that I could get away will lesser levels of support, but then the higher level of support does not hurt. Support from subs to other groups and from other groups to subs does most of the job. There is marginal benefit in engaging other support, but that's just me. On some other forums some professional calibrator challenged the whole setup as not optimal, starting with subs firing too early. He could probably do a better job in 2.5 days he would require, but including transport that would likely be more than my AV10 costs.

I find the whole topic of evaluating my REW charts a bit frustrating as they are different, but at the end of the day I do have issue hearing any difference between the most. I do hear difference between some of them, and keep them even if they might not be the best measuring ones.

I also agree that people should consider SPL. Some speakers can't really support 50hz at 100dB while they potentially could at 80 or 90hz. We have different presets and thus ability to address different use scenarios.
 
Number of filters available aside, it makes absolutely no sense that dirac's default recommendation for my system was for the subs to support absolutely nothing and just remove everything below 50 Hz from all content with their default 50 Hz brick wall filter for non-sub channels.
 
Number of filters available aside, it makes absolutely no sense that dirac's default recommendation for my system was for the subs to support absolutely nothing and just remove everything below 50 Hz from all content with their default 50 Hz brick wall filter for non-sub channels.
Not sure why that happened. I had some early issues with Dirac but then deleted the app on Mac and went fresh. Ever since it’s really working well.

Your use case might be different as are your measurements. So just try to allocate available filters best you can. Not all rooms and systems are the same so would not blame Dirac for failure to do well of auto-pilot. In fact more members thing it is important to tweak than not.
 
Number of filters available aside, it makes absolutely no sense that dirac's default recommendation for my system was for the subs to support absolutely nothing and just remove everything below 50 Hz from all content with their default 50 Hz brick wall filter for non-sub channels.
What speakers and subs you have? And Marantz was using default settings, directional subwoofer mode was not active?
 
Number of filters available aside, it makes absolutely no sense that dirac's default recommendation for my system was for the subs to support absolutely nothing and just remove everything below 50 Hz from all content with their default 50 Hz brick wall filter for non-sub channels.

That makes no sense, sounds like something went wrong. Maybe contact dirac support tk dig deeper?
 
I don't recall which setting is default in Marantz but subs were set to standard not directional. The most limited speakers are a pair of Revel M106s as temporary surrounds and the subs are sealed 15 inch that play comfortably for the 20-150Hz ART range. Given ART default high passes all non-subs at 50 Hz though what possible logic would not add the sub group as support to all the other groups?

@AudioJester I wrote dirac yesterday asking why they would do that.
 
Well, it you are not liking it sure someone else will at the right price. Lots of people would love to get that unit at steep discount.

If not getting auto support, you could engage the support levels that are reasonable. If that does not work, well, then not sure to what to say. Unlikely you will get any sympathy from D&M or Dirac as this really works on all AV10 units, so they will likely assume it is a settings/user issue.
 
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The more I listen to my ART HT setup, the more I appreciate what it does. It really is transformational in my room.

Controlling/eliminating bass over-hang is something amazingly new, but it also fills dips/cancellations in the frequency response. We know multiple bass sources can do this to bass nulls, but has it ever been this user friendly and easy to implement?
 
The more I listen to my ART HT setup, the more I appreciate what it does. It really is transformational in my room.

Controlling/eliminating bass over-hang is something amazingly new, but it also fills dips/cancellations in the frequency response. We know multiple bass sources can do this to bass nulls, but has it ever been this user friendly and easy to implement?
Never :p been so easy to implement. Takes most of the fun to claims or tweaking and special abilities. At least in most case.
 
Isn't it odd (and funny) that the HTP-1, designed in 2019, can do it and Marantz's top model can't?
No, not really... the existing DSP's are cheap and cheerful (satisfy the beancounters) and have more than ample processing power for Dirac Live, Audyssey and even DLBC....

With ART they start to reach their limits... but then these are models that were designed and tested 3 or 4 years ago... and ART was not in the picture back then.

And even if ART were in the picture, the marketing guys might well have said, don't worry about 2025/26, we will have the next generation ready to go by then...

Enough power to make everything (including ART) work and work well - but just a little marginal for max ART configurations... a perfect Marketing setup of the Xx900 generation!
 
The HTP-1 has no filter/support channel limit. The number of used "filters" is not visible. Internal parameters show that my 7.3.6 system has 240 "max cross terms" which I believe is the same thing that is show on D/M units as 98 (or sometimes 96 or 97).
Do you know if there is any way to find out how many "cross terms" you are using for your 7.3.6 setup in an all to all configuration?
 
I think we need to be careful to extrapolate your room, speakers, configuration to making a statement that if you use max or near max filters, you will have poor results (either objective or subjective). There seems to be just as many that have great results and are happy at or near the max. With so many variables regarding speaker capabilities, locations of speakers, rooms, and personal preference it all seems quite difficult to make definitive statements one way or the other.
Thanks for taking the time to try different things with your system, measure, and report your findings.
One thing that might be interesting, with any of your configurations is to see the affect of spl on ART performance. If/when you do your next set of measurements, maybe take post measurements at 3 different SPL’s. It would be interesting if the results stay the same or if, as some speakers get closer to their limits, results get worse at higher spl’s. It would make sense, that the louder you listen, the more conservative you need to be on setting the lower limits of frequency support.
What I am pointing out, is that there is no way of knowing how many filters Dirac needs once it reachs 98.... it could be 98, or 99, or 140...
The calculations will be based on the filters it needs for the configuration - not on the actual filters available limit - hence you get pretty poor results

As soon as I dropped the system to a configuration that fitted within <98 - the measured performance improved markedly

The User Interface feature missing is to have Dirac warn about configurations that use more filters than available.... a sort of filter # clipping warning (so to speak)
 
I think we need to be careful to extrapolate your room, speakers, configuration to making a statement that if you use max or near max filters, you will have poor results (either objective or subjective). There seems to be just as many that have great results and are happy at or near the max. With so many variables regarding speaker capabilities, locations of speakers, rooms, and personal preference it all seems quite difficult to make definitive statements one way or the other.
Thanks for taking the time to try different things with your system, measure, and report your findings.
One thing that might be interesting, with any of your configurations is to see the affect of spl on ART performance. If/when you do your next set of measurements, maybe take post measurements at 3 different SPL’s. It would be interesting if the results stay the same or if, as some speakers get closer to their limits, results get worse at higher spl’s. It would make sense, that the louder you listen, the more conservative you need to be on setting the lower limits of frequency support.
Yes - I too would be interested in seeing how it varies with SPL .... organising an afternoon with the house to myself (shared living environment...) may take a while though!

It could be a few weeks before I have the time required, free of "space invaders"
 
What I am pointing out, is that there is no way of knowing how many filters Dirac needs once it reachs 98.... it could be 98, or 99, or 140...
The calculations will be based on the filters it needs for the configuration - not on the actual filters available limit - hence you get pretty poor results

As soon as I dropped the system to a configuration that fitted within <98 - the measured performance improved markedly

The User Interface feature missing is to have Dirac warn about configurations that use more filters than available.... a sort of filter # clipping warning (so to speak)
Am I correct that you are thinking that if you set certain configurations/paramters that require in excess of say 99 for D&M users, but since D&M users have that limit, that Dirac does not properly use what it has available and hence the bad results? Certainly a possibility. I am trying to recall on Storm, if the Software or Storm itself ever gave an error or warning that you were out of “filters”. If my memory is correct, it showed if you were using too many but I will have to think about that. I don’t think D&M ever give you a warning that you need to make adjustments to use fewer filters for ART.
 
No, not really... the existing DSP's are cheap and cheerful (satisfy the beancounters) and have more than ample processing power for Dirac Live, Audyssey and even DLBC....

With ART they start to reach their limits... but then these are models that were designed and tested 3 or 4 years ago... and ART was not in the picture back then.

And even if ART were in the picture, the marketing guys might well have said, don't worry about 2025/26, we will have the next generation ready to go by then...

Enough power to make everything (including ART) work and work well - but just a little marginal for max ART configurations... a perfect Marketing setup of the Xx900 generation!
That is a valid point. Next gen supporting 2x as much of filters as Storm. Not sure how you would use them, but it goes hand in hand with the spec obsession. We already know that we are limited in SINAD perception, but lately have seen push in display spec to the outer of the rim. Almost as crazy as SINAD but aimed at less equipped crowd.

Understanding the underlying performance independently is what is really important to keep the baseline. What we have is more than great. Yes, we could use tone control after Dirac, so hopefully that happens in some foreseeable timeframe.
 
Am I correct that you are thinking that if you set certain configurations/paramters that require in excess of say 99 for D&M users, but since D&M users have that limit, that Dirac does not properly use what it has available and hence the bad results? Certainly a possibility. I am trying to recall on Storm, if the Software or Storm itself ever gave an error or warning that you were out of “filters”. If my memory is correct, it showed if you were using too many but I will have to think about that. I don’t think D&M ever give you a warning that you need to make adjustments to use fewer filters for ART.
It certainly never did on my setup (5.2.4) - with the default all for all configuration it was showing "filters 98" - no way of knowing if it needed more than 98...

And the measured performance was unimpressive (subjective performance was better than without ART, but not WOW!)

As soon as I dropped the heights out of the config (which was planned anyway as they contribute nothing below 150Hz!!! ) - the filter numbers dropped to just under 60... then depending on the combinations I experimented with thereafter, max I got was 61 filters. (splitting my subs into seperate groups used more filters than having them combined in 1 group)
 
It certainly never did on my setup (5.2.4) - with the default all for all configuration it was showing "filters 98" - no way of knowing if it needed more than 98...

And the measured performance was unimpressive (subjective performance was better than without ART, but not WOW!)

As soon as I dropped the heights out of the config (which was planned anyway as they contribute nothing below 150Hz!!! ) - the filter numbers dropped to just under 60... then depending on the combinations I experimented with thereafter, max I got was 61 filters. (splitting my subs into seperate groups used more filters than having them combined in 1 group)
I am 90% certain when using ART on the Storm you would select your support channels and you could see your max number of filters and if you exceeded it showed you that and you needed to remove or adjust some support to get under the number of filters you had available. Could be wrong. It certainly could be a good idea not to see the max D&M filters. Be at least 1 under it would make sense.
 
Denon X3800H owner here. Not sure if this question has been posted yet but if it was I missed it. What would be the reason the Dirac app won't display the number of filters used for the ART configs? I run a 5.4.2 setup.
 
Denon X3800H owner here. Not sure if this question has been posted yet but if it was I missed it. What would be the reason the Dirac app won't display the number of filters used for the ART configs? I run a 5.4.2 setup.
Should be the same as I am getting on my X4800 - and I definitely get the filters showing...

Are you running the latest version of Dirac on your PC? (assuming it is the Windows PC version?)
 
Should be the same as I am getting on my X4800 - and I definitely get the filters showing...

Are you running the latest version of Dirac on your PC? (assuming it is the Windows PC version?)
I'm running Dirac Live 3.14.0 on a windows PC.
 
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