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Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

isn't there a small/large setting on the denon? will dirac art just ignore it?

also what about the point about the side wall location having control of other bass modes vs the rear wall center
This is what it says

Side wall, ~2 ft from back wall ⭐

Pros
• Strong coupling to length AND width modes
• Maximum modal diversity vs front subs
• Excellent for out-of-phase decay cancellation
• Exactly where active absorbers are placed in studios

Cons
• Looks asymmetrical
• Can sound odd without ART (but you have ART)
 
For the 3800, Amir got 168W into 4 ohms both channels driven while he got 175W for the 4800 under the same conditions. This is only a 4% difference compared to the 15% difference under 8 ohms. I believe your prediction is still based on the massive price difference b/w the two despite you admitting the 3800 would have been the "value" choice.

My interest in your 4800 performance on internal amps alone is tied to the belief that what goes for the 4800 should generally go for my 3800 as well! ;)
My 3800H is regularly set to -15 to -20 dB with music. LCR are active but the other speakers seem to be power hungry…Listening distance is only about 2m so I can see that under more demanding circumstances a powerful amp might be necessary. Thought about adding a 6 Channel HypeX power amp but is there any benefit?
 
My 3800H is regularly set to -15 to -20 dB with music. LCR are active but the other speakers seem to be power hungry…Listening distance is only about 2m so I can see that under more demanding circumstances a powerful amp might be necessary. Thought about adding a 6 Channel HypeX power amp but is there any benefit?

in your case [5.x.4] setup with active L-C-R I would look at surrounds speakers as potential weak link - first LS50 have 5.25in woofers and this will limit their usable bass output in terms of undistorted SPL and second you are asking single speaker to take duty of 2-3 speakers at once [SR-SRB and FW partly]. I think what you are hearing is more LS50s bottoming out, rather than amp being driven to its limits. [but i might be wrong, as there are other variables at play, e.g. room size]. Just out of my experience - getting surround speakers optimised for low distortion at higher SPL made all the difference in my setup [Using Purifi drivers now]


Just as a quick demonstration of what can be achieved with tweaking a Dirac ART setup, here are my initial Dirac ART 5.1.4 setup - default vs my latest 5.2.4 with tweaking of support groups and the addition of a 2nd sub. (I've posted these measurements before... but the difference is striking so here they are back to back):

View attachment 500031

View attachment 500032

I honestly was not expecting the objective measurements to be this good...

Subjectively the system has much enhanced clarity, and the bass extension is increased, as well as having overall a feel of more "meat" on the bones of the bass.

Note: I am NOT a bass head - my target curve is +0db / -3db

nice one.

As a general remark - lot of impressive REW charts posted, showing ART doing its job perfectly. But if you want to understand your system real performance one should measure [especially subs] at higher levels to get the real picture. At 77-80dB almost every system measures OK. I think you need to get to 96dB or in that region for sweep/pink noise] at MLP to get any meaningful info about real system performance [or for bass only go even higher to 102dB].

Nothing kills immersivity like distortion/compression in dynamic peaks - be it music or movies.
 
Nothing kills immersivity like distortion/compression in dynamic peaks - be it music or movies.
With ART it's far worse than that - the calculations ART makes are based on a clean signal - when you add distortion to the signal it becomes less effective - so as distortion rises, so does decay in an ART system - even at normal listening levels (I measured at 74db) distortion in the lower bass region starts to rise for all my speakers and subs... and so does decay (ie: ART becomes ever less effective at decay control as distortion rises)

And I am noting that rise at "ordinary" SPL's long before the distortion levels become audible - basically (assuming I am correct about correlation = causation in this case!) - ART's effect starts to degrade as soon as distortion rises above roughly 1.5%

Regardless at what level you measure your setup, the FSL should be based on measured distortion levels... and I think you will find that this may constrain ART to higher frequencies than many of us are trying... (or perhaps we just have to live with a "wetter" configuration in the low bass, than those of us who prefer a "dry" setup would like)
 
ChatGPT is recommending a couple things I wasn’t expecting
None of them are at "AI" level yet. They're just "Large Language Models". And so how much "language" do you think is in the "model" regarding a "just released" "black-box technology"? Not much I would say ::seahorse-emoji::

(Edit: Also, ChatGPT models have typically been "a few months old" by the time they are publicly released, which means they may not even have "read this thread").

So like TimoJ says, measure as Dirac says. And if they have recommendations for where to put the sub (is that where the suggestion of center of rear wall came from?), then follow their recommendations — because at the end of the day, they are the ones with "insider info".

But if center of rear wall is just a general suggestion from this thread or similar, then I haven't been following close enough to know if that's a good suggestion based upon everyone's anecdata. "Center of rear wall" means that sub is going to activate the rooms 1/2 width mode maximally, which may (or may not) suit the ART algorithm. Alternatively, being "2 foot away from the wall" means it isn't going to activate the 1/1 length mode maximally, which is possibly what has been historically suggested for doing multi-sub (and historic text/posts are the "large language" info the AI is built upon).
 
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Dirac is using 2 and Audyssey is still on 1. Dirac gives you 3 slots within the slot of preset 1 or 2 so 6 options if you go all Dirac. You can use preset 2 to compare 3 Dirac set ups currently so load 2 more.

Quick follow-up - if I wanted to do base system measurements, would I be able to use one of the empty slots, or a "None" setting I'm sure I read exists? Or would I need to load up Speaker Preset 1 and zero everything out? Thanks!
 
None of them are at "AI" level yet. They're just "Large Language Models". And so how much "language" do you think is in the "model" regarding a "just released" "black-box technology"? Not much I would say ::seahorse-emoji::

(Edit: Also, ChatGPT models have typically been "a few months old" by the time they are publicly released, which means they may not even have "read this thread").

So like TimoJ says, measure as Dirac says. And if they have recommendations for where to put the sub (is that where the suggestion of center of rear wall came from?), then follow their recommendations — because at the end of the day, they are the ones with "insider info".

But if center of rear wall is just a general suggestion from this thread or similar, then I haven't been following close enough to know if that's a good suggestion based upon everyone's anecdata. "Center of rear wall" means that sub is going to activate the rooms 1/2 width mode maximally, which may (or may not) suit the ART algorithm. Alternatively, being "2 foot away from the wall" means it isn't going to activate the 1/1 length mode maximally, which is possibly what has been historically suggested for doing multi-sub (and historic text/posts are the "large language" info the AI is built upon).
Understanding the limitations of ChatGPT, that said if you’re looking for that third woofer to increase modal diversity, then it would seem the side wall location makes sense.
 
Understanding the limitations of ChatGPT, that said if you’re looking for that third woofer to increase modal diversity, then it would seem the side wall location makes sense. I would think my setup is not unique, would be interesting to get a recommendation from Dirac on their preferred locations for 3 and 4 sub installations in medium size rooms. Also on running front main full range in cases where they have the necessary spl and bandwidth capability.
 
Quick follow-up - if I wanted to do base system measurements, would I be able to use one of the empty slots, or a "None" setting I'm sure I read exists? Or would I need to load up Speaker Preset 1 and zero everything out? Thanks!
The presets can only be used with 1 RC brand:

1: Full Audyssey with different calibrations for preset1 and preset2
2: Mixed Audyssey - Dirac with Audyssey on preset1 and Dirac on preset2 or vice versa.
3: Full Dirac with different calibrations for preset1 and preset2.

Dirac allows for 3 slots + Dirac Off
 
Quick follow-up - if I wanted to do base system measurements, would I be able to use one of the empty slots, or a "None" setting I'm sure I read exists? Or would I need to load up Speaker Preset 1 and zero everything out? Thanks!
Not sure I am following. If your current preset 1 is an Audyssey measurement than preset 1 is currently Audyssey with whatever set up you loaded and saved in preset 1. With Dirac you are using preset 2 IIRC, Dirac allows 3 slots within that preset for different "tunes". So with Audyssey you get one tune per preset but with Dirac you get 3 tunes per preset of availability. With Dirac I have not measured my overall set up more than once (yet) but my understanding is you can load any project you have saved into any of the 3 slots. So you could have a tight measurement of 9 points in one slot, a tight measurement of 16 points in another, and a wide seat measurement in slot 3 if desired. Or you could have 3 variations of support settings or whatever based on the same measurement. Your term of base system measurement is where I get lost as I don't understand if you mean a new Audyssey measurement, a new Dirac measurement, or base settings (defaults) applied to a current Audyssey or Dirac measurement? Hope this helped?
 
The presets can only be used with 1 RC brand:

1: Full Audyssey with different calibrations for preset1 and preset2
2: Mixed Audyssey - Dirac with Audyssey on preset1 and Dirac on preset2 or vice versa.
3: Full Dirac with different calibrations for preset1 and preset2.

Dirac allows for 3 slots + Dirac Off

TY! I guess the question then is, does "Dirac Off" mean "absolutely no settings/calibration", or "just distance/LPF/etc."?
 
TY! I guess the question then is, does "Dirac Off" mean "absolutely no settings/calibration", or "just distance/LPF/etc."?

That's a good one! I don't have any intention to turn it off but I am curious if the distance and level settings remain or if when turned off or if everything reverts to the out of the box presets?
 
in your case [5.x.4] setup with active L-C-R I would look at surrounds speakers as potential weak link - first LS50 have 5.25in woofers and this will limit their usable bass output in terms of undistorted SPL and second you are asking single speaker to take duty of 2-3 speakers at once [SR-SRB and FW partly]. I think what you are hearing is more LS50s bottoming out, rather than amp being driven to its limits. [but i might be wrong, as there are other variables at play, e.g. room size]. Just out of my experience - getting surround speakers optimised for low distortion at higher SPL made all the difference in my setup [Using Purifi drivers now]
I don't hear any distortion, low frequency range and support for the LS 50s are limited to 75 Hz. Woofers aren't even moving ... Thought about upgrading the rear speakers but haven't found a compact bookshelf speaker with wall-mount-option and better bass extension which also measures well. I am actually inclined to support the rear speakers with two compact subwoofers (Buchardt Sub 10) instead.
 
I don't hear any distortion, low frequency range and support for the LS 50s are limited to 75 Hz. Woofers aren't even moving ... Thought about upgrading the rear speakers but haven't found a compact bookshelf speaker with wall-mount-option and better bass extension which also measures well. I am actually inclined to support the rear speakers with two compact subwoofers (Buchardt Sub 10) instead.
I’m using these mounts below with KEF R3 Meta. You have to do some careful drilling but they look and work great.

 
TY! I guess the question then is, does "Dirac Off" mean "absolutely no settings/calibration", or "just distance/LPF/etc."?
Most probably something like that.
Last week I apparently did something wrong with one of the calibrations as it kept switching to the off position. This weekend I've rebuilt my 3 calibrations off the mother measurement using the newest beta software and now all slots behave nicely. I found out as the tightness of ART went missing.
 
@Flavio Could you please comment on the impact of distortion (THD) on ART decay control?
 
Thanks for the link, unfortunately not available here but there are similar wall-mounts with EU shipping. Maybe if I get a really good deal on a pair of Kef R3 (non meta) this will be an option. :)
Take a look hhere

The mount it self
 
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