Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

[fzst]

FYI: I went from ART with 1 to 2 subs and 2 subs is a clear improvement with ART as well

Post in thread 'Dirac ART is now running on beta FW for Denon Xx800H AVRs!' https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...a-fw-for-denon-xx800h-avrs.46616/post-2477175

Nice write up, glad you're enjoying your upgrade. However, I'm not sure that what you are experiencing is actually a result of ART, my guess would be that what you are experiencing can mostly be credited to the upgrade from a single to a dual sub setup since I experienced the upgrade in a very similar way (before ART and even before DLBC). Frankly, I would describe it almost exactly how you did - going from one to two subs in my room was huge (I had SVS SB 2000 Pros back then). Is the second sub in the back located closer to you than the one in the front? It kinda sounds like it from what you are writing. In my case I did set the subs up like that as well, one in the front between the R and C, which gives me a very flat response in my room and the second one very close to the MLP in the corner on the left next to my couch, which greatly improves the tactile feel at lower volumes.

Funny that you rate 1 sub so high. Does the 2nd not give you significantly more deep bass? That was the biggest improvement for me. The other also noticeable but the deep bass and more pressure in the room was striking....

Yeah, that's exactly how I was feeling about dual subs as well. It mostly gave me more sense of bass pressure and more tactile feedback at lower volumes. This was with Audyssey though, I ever heard a single sub with ART. I was very happy with the very deep bass with DLBC (when I had two Arendal 1S and especially after I got two additional SVS SB13U) what ART did in my system is it greatly improved the "punch region" - there so much more "kick" (which I would assume is mostly due to the better time alignement and crossover integration between the subs and mains of ART vs BC).

I always wondererd though if my experience with going dual could also be achieved with a single more powerful sub. Maybe it was simply a case of getting more driver surfae area..? I remember when I first got a (single) Arendal 1723 1S, it sounded more impressive than even the dual SVS SB 2000 Pros with a lot of material because it had more punch than even the two SVS combined. Only the very deep bass kinda fell short of the dual sub setup and the two still felt a little more immersive but since the very deep bass is probably exactly what provides this "immersed feeling", going with an even more powerful single sub could potentially achieve sth simial as well (provided you have a position where a single sub works very good and you only have to worry about a single MLP)? Maybe it was just a case of subpar integration of the two SVS Audyssey though, which maybe didn't let them play up to their potential punch wise.. I would love to hear a pair of SB 2000 Pros with ART again or better yet a pair of ported subs (I also had a pair of SVS PC 2000s once) to see what ART could extract out of them.

It seems that adding a second Arendal 1S subwoofer produced very good results. In my environment, even a single sub works well, but I would rate it roughly as 90 points with one unit, 95 points with two, 98 points with three, and close to 100 points with four. In a DLBC setup, I would say one sub is around 50 points and two subs about 80 points. The difference between one and two subs was significant there, whereas with ART the difference is not as large.

That's a very interesting take - I guess yet another thing on my list to potentially try out The position of my first sub is quite decent so maybe ART could actually make that work quite well to get a decently flat FR - however I'm not sure about the decay, this would probably get quite a bit worse with only a single sub in the front...

This is only a single Arendal sub in the front:

 

[fzst]

In my use case - with 4 base layer full range speakers in the mix - 1 sub was 50%, 2 subs looks to me like 95% (based on looking at the waterfall charts)... I think a further couple of % could be eked out with another sub (or perhaps with height speakers contributing in the 70Hz to 150Hz range?) - and potentially if my subs or full rangers were changed to speakers that were infrasonic capable, then the exemplary results could potentially be extended to 20hz rather than the current 24hz to 30Hz...

But that is just niggling issues - taking into account the dreaded combination of diminishing returns and exponentially increasing costs for each tiny 1% increment in objective performance - I now feel pretty damn close to where I wanted to be!

Slightly larger height speakers are on my shopping list.... there is a little bit of unevenness in the 70Hz to 150Hz range, which could potentially be improved with more capable height speakers contributing... but given how small that measured unevenness is, that is more of an "I can see the issue on the graph" dissatisfaction, rather than "I can hear a problem" - real issue.

In any case - assuming capable full range base layer speakers, then 2 subs are ample - I really doubt a 3rd sub would change the results perceptibly!

Without full range mains contributing, I think 3 or even 4 subs would be beneficial... (and yes I didn't think that to be the case before I tried ART "hands on").

Furthermore, this is coming from an anti-bass head - who has a target curve of +0db bass, -3db treble (using shelves/handles)

Indeed, the more bass capable speakers in different locations in the room (subs or main spekaers) ART has to work with, the better the chance of achieving good results regarding a flat FR and low decay and the less you have to worry about potentially hit the limits of your speakers.

 

[EWL5]

Denon X4800 13.4kg (?? - maybe ok with difficult speakers?)
Denon X3800 12.5kg (?? - unlikely to be ok with difficult speakers)

For the 3800, Amir got 168W into 4 ohms both channels driven while he got 175W for the 4800 under the same conditions. This is only a 4% difference compared to the 15% difference under 8 ohms. I believe your prediction is still based on the massive price difference b/w the two despite you admitting the 3800 would have been the "value" choice.

My interest in your 4800 performance on internal amps alone is tied to the belief that what goes for the 4800 should generally go for my 3800 as well!

 

[DutchJay]

Nice write up, glad you're enjoying your upgrade. However, I'm not sure that what you are experiencing is actually a result of ART, my guess would be that what you are experiencing can mostly be credited to the upgrade from a single to a dual sub setup since I experienced the upgrade in a very similar way (before ART and even before DLBC). Frankly, I would describe it almost exactly how you did - going from one to two subs in my room was huge (I had SVS SB 2000 Pros back then). Is the second sub in the back located closer to you than the one in the front? It kinda sounds like it from what you are writing. In my case I did set the subs up like that as well, one in the front between the R and C, which gives me a very flat response in my room and the second one very close to the MLP in the corner on the left next to my couch, which greatly improves the tactile feel at lower volumes.

Yeah, that's exactly how I was feeling about dual subs as well. It mostly gave me more sense of bass pressure and more tactile feedback at lower volumes. This was with Audyssey though, I ever heard a single sub with ART. I was very happy with the very deep bass with DLBC (when I had two Arendal 1S and especially after I got two additional SVS SB13U) what ART did in my system is it greatly improved the "punch region" - there so much more "kick" (which I would assume is mostly due to the better time alignement and crossover integration between the subs and mains of ART vs BC).

I always wondererd though if my experience with going dual could also be achieved with a single more powerful sub. Maybe it was simply a case of getting more driver surfae area..? I remember when I first got a (single) Arendal 1723 1S, it sounded more impressive than even the dual SVS SB 2000 Pros with a lot of material because it had more punch than even the two SVS combined. Only the very deep bass kinda fell short of the dual sub setup and the two still felt a little more immersive but since the very deep bass is probably exactly what provides this "immersed feeling", going with an even more powerful single sub could potentially achieve sth simial as well (provided you have a position where a single sub works very good and you only have to worry about a single MLP)? Maybe it was just a case of subpar integration of the two SVS Audyssey though, which maybe didn't let them play up to their potential punch wise.. I would love to hear a pair of SB 2000 Pros with ART again or better yet a pair of ported subs (I also had a pair of SVS PC 2000s once) to see what ART could extract out of them.


That's a very interesting take - I guess yet another thing on my list to potentially try out The position of my first sub is quite decent so maybe ART could actually make that work quite well to get a decently flat FR - however I'm not sure about the decay, this would probably get quite a bit worse with only a single sub in the front...

This is only a single Arendal sub in the front:

View attachment 499883

I agree with you, it is more the second sub than ART. But my point in testing this was the other way around: i wanted to know (hoped ) if art with 2 towers and 1 sub would be as good as 2 subs.

ART works its magic and maximizes performance in both situations imho...

The second sub is indeed in the corner just behind and to the side of the couch and MLP just like you.

I thought the immersion is more because low frequencies are no longer perceived as arriving from a direction. The listener is surrounded by a consistent low-frequency pressure field rather than being hit by a single wave from the front. This creates the sensation of sitting inside the sound rather than having sound projected at you.

This is what I co concluded based on my research and now confirmed with my new set up, but I'm no acoustiacian so maybe ill be corrected....

 

[fzst]

I agree with you, it is more the second sub than ART. But my point in testing this was the other way around: i wanted to know (hoped ) if art with 2 towers and 1 sub would be as good as 2 subs.

Maybe it could if you had very bass potent speakers that can go down to 20Hz... for most it's way more practical to just add more subs though than to upgrade to very potent full range speakers with lots of power to drive them.

ART works its magic and maximizes performance in both situations imho...

It definitely does. In my setup, ART actually doesn't have such a huge influence on the decay times as in other ART- measurements I've seen but it's still a night and day difference in how it sounds. I bet your two subs sound noticeably better with ART than my two subs did with Audyssey or DLBC.

The second sub is indeed in the corner just behind and to the side of the couch and MLP just like you.

I found that this gave me a lot of tactile feedback probably because the back sub would transfer more energy into the couch - kinda like a tactile transducer. The close proximity also contributes to a more "forceful" transmission of sound pressure through the air of course.

I thought the immersion is more because low frequencies are no longer perceived as arriving from a direction. The listener is surrounded by a consistent low-frequency pressure field rather than being hit by a single wave from the front. This creates the sensation of sitting inside the sound rather than having sound projected at you.

This is what I co concluded based on my research and now confirmed with my new set up, but I'm no acoustiacian so maybe ill be corrected....

Yes, having more subs/bass emitting speakers distributed around the room definitely helps impe. Going from a single to a dual sub setup is certainly the biggest step but even going from 2 to 3 and eventually 4 subs did improve this more than I expected in my room. However, I'm no expert either and maybe this feeling actually derives off of having a larger driver surface area/more capable subwoofer(s) emitting more very deep frequencies...

 

[Frank207be]

Maybe it could if you had very bass potent speakers that can go down to 20Hz... for most it's way more practical to just add more subs though than to upgrade to very potent full range speakers with lots of power to drive them.

It definitely does. In my setup, ART actually doesn't have such a huge influence on the decay times as in other ART- measurements I've seen but it's still a night and day difference in how it sounds. I bet your two subs sound noticeably better with ART than my two subs did with Audyssey or DLBC.

I found that this gave me a lot of tactile feedback probably because the back sub would transfer more energy into the couch - kinda like a tactile transducer. The close proximity also contributes to a more "forceful" transmission of sound pressure through the air of course.

Yes, having more subs/bass emitting speakers distributed around the room definitely helps impe. Going from a single to a dual sub setup is certainly the biggest step but even going from 2 to 3 and eventually 4 subs did improve this more than I expected in my room. However, I'm no expert either and maybe this feeling actually derives off of having a larger driver surface area/more capable subwoofer(s) emitting more very deep frequencies...

I can't agree more. Having 4 sealed subs each capable of outputting 115dB/1m at 20Hz (without room gain) is a pure joy with ART. Even during the most intense movie scenes the dual 18" and 21" cones barely move. I even have a 5th set of dual 15" subs ready in my riser but still need to find a way to couple them to my surround speakers.

 

[Frank207be]

So looking at the file sizes of each of my 3 curves? Does Dirac save every snapshot within the newly saved file? The original measurement of my 7.4.6 system is 80MB. Then the first curve with all its editing gets 290MB, the second one becomes 376MB and the last one 461MB...

 

[dlaloum]

I agree with you, it is more the second sub than ART. But my point in testing this was the other way around: i wanted to know (hoped ) if art with 2 towers and 1 sub would be as good as 2 subs.

ART works its magic and maximizes performance in both situations imho...

The second sub is indeed in the corner just behind and to the side of the couch and MLP just like you.

I thought the immersion is more because low frequencies are no longer perceived as arriving from a direction. The listener is surrounded by a consistent low-frequency pressure field rather than being hit by a single wave from the front. This creates the sensation of sitting inside the sound rather than having sound projected at you.

This is what I co concluded based on my research and now confirmed with my new set up, but I'm no acoustiacian so maybe ill be corrected....

Here we also start to impinge on the realm of subjective impression vs artist intent...

Cinema surround specifications have the LFE at the front behind the screen... all other subwoofers are linked to specific channels (L, R, SL, SR, RL, RR) - with subs being required to achieve 32Hz (yep no more than that)

Hence, although there may well be a multitude of subs, they are specific and localised channels - not intended to provide a single theatre wide monophonic "bath". (although with frequencies below 60Hz, the end result might well be exactly that, a monophonic bath)

 

[NanoGuidingStar]

So looking at the file sizes of each of my 3 curves? Does Dirac save every snapshot within the newly saved file? The original measurement of my 7.4.6 system is 80MB. Then the first curve with all its editing gets 290MB, the second one becomes 376MB and the last one 461MB...

It was already been discussed, be sure to clean the snapshot of your project file. I have Dirac project file that’s as large as 12GB, filled with snapshots I’ve never cleaned up.

https://www.avsforum.com/posts/64359605/

https://www.avsforum.com/posts/64359846/

 

[dlaloum]

Just as a quick demonstration of what can be achieved with tweaking a Dirac ART setup, here are my initial Dirac ART 5.1.4 setup - default vs my latest 5.2.4 with tweaking of support groups and the addition of a 2nd sub. (I've posted these measurements before... but the difference is striking so here they are back to back):

I honestly was not expecting the objective measurements to be this good...

Subjectively the system has much enhanced clarity, and the bass extension is increased, as well as having overall a feel of more "meat" on the bones of the bass.

Note: I am NOT a bass head - my target curve is +0db / -3db

 

[DutchJay]

Here we also start to impinge on the realm of subjective impression vs artist intent...

Is it though? Genuinely interested, as your conment seems to fit right in my line of thought..

I agree that cinema specs route LFE to the front and that subs are assigned to specific channels. But as frequencies below ~60Hz are omnidirectional, room interaction and human perception dominate over sw placement.

Regardless of routing, you will perceive a pressure field rather than a directional source right? Which is created by subwoofers that are placed all around you (just like the cinema), and which I try to mimmick as best I can by placing one in the front and one under the right surround...

 

[Frank207be]

It was already been discussed, be sure to clean the snapshot of your project file. I have Dirac project file that’s as large as 12GB, filled with snapshots I’ve never cleaned up.
View attachment 500020

https://www.avsforum.com/posts/64359605/

https://www.avsforum.com/posts/64359846/

Thanks for the tip. I cleaned up all files and now they're exactly the same size: 290MB

 

[Oddball]

Here we also start to impinge on the realm of subjective impression vs artist intent...

Cinema surround specifications have the LFE at the front behind the screen... all other subwoofers are linked to specific channels (L, R, SL, SR, RL, RR) - with subs being required to achieve 32Hz (yep no more than that)

Hence, although there may well be a multitude of subs, they are specific and localised channels - not intended to provide a single theatre wide monophonic "bath". (although with frequencies below 60Hz, the end result might well be exactly that, a monophonic bath)

To achieve similar effect with ART you would choose center channel as reference for the subs. This will be primarily for LFE. In supporting other channels, subs should align with respective channels.

So there should be strong sense of directivity with ART both ways. Mixes have different approaches to separating low bass between LFE and respective channels so really at the end depends on them. IMO good mix will be more directional, at least above 50hz.

 

[Hyacin]

ok so I'm a little confused and have a couple quick questions that the documentation and searching didn't answer -

I had @OCA 's wonderful EVO AcoustiX on speaker presets 1 and 2. I just did my first Dirac measurements, created filters, exported them to _Dirac_ 'slot 3', and now I'm on 'speaker preset 2', 'Dirac filter 3'

* What happened to the Audyssey filters made my AcoustiX?
* If I set the Dirac filter to 'none', do I get them back?
* I assume Dirac didn't layer itself _on top_ of them, hopefully?
* Is it 3 filter slots per speaker preset? Or 3 filter slots across both? (Marantz AV20)

 

[JRowland]

ok so I'm a little confused and have a couple quick questions that the documentation and searching didn't answer -

I had @OCA 's wonderful EVO AcoustiX on speaker presets 1 and 2. I just did my first Dirac measurements, created filters, exported them to _Dirac_ 'slot 3', and now I'm on 'speaker preset 2', 'Dirac filter 3'

* What happened to the Audyssey filters made my AcoustiX?
* If I set the Dirac filter to 'none', do I get them back?
* I assume Dirac didn't layer itself _on top_ of them, hopefully?
* Is it 3 filter slots per speaker preset? Or 3 filter slots across both? (Marantz AV20)

Dirac is using 2 and Audyssey is still on 1. Dirac gives you 3 slots within the slot of preset 1 or 2 so 6 options if you go all Dirac. You can use preset 2 to compare 3 Dirac set ups currently so load 2 more.

 

[PGAMiami]

Perhaps this has been asked and answered, but here it goes anyway. I just added three subs to my setup, previously it was 5.0.2, now it’s 5.3.2. Using a Denon 4800h in prepro mode. The mains are TAD R1s with very clean bass down to 20hz, center is a KEF Reference 2c non Meta, surround are KEF R3 Meta, height are KEF R8 Meta, front subs are Perlisten R210s, rear sub is Rythmic F12 SE. ChatGPT is recommending a couple things I wasn’t expecting

First it’s say all measurements for calibration should be at ear height in a small rectangle at MLP. I do want to optimize MLP but it surprised me that all should be at same height.

Second it’s saying rear sub should be on a side wall 2 feet from the back of the room, not in the center on rear wall. I don’t really have room for a 4th sub. And also it’s saying all speakers including the TADs should be set to small and the TADs should be crossed over at 60-80hz so ART can better control the bass. Seems counterintuitive since I would think more front bass actuators in slightly different locations would help Dirac ART. I’m not concerned with the bass output of the TADs being a problem. They can play deep bass at high levels with low distortion and compression.

Thoughts?

 

[TimoJ]

ChatGPT

Looks like it's hallucinating, once again...

 

[PGAMiami]

Looks like it's hallucinating, once again...
[

Looks like it's hallucinating, once again...

So what’s the right answer? Where should the sub be? It’s saying the side wall offset from the back wall a bit will allow for more diversity and better control of the bass modes as that speaker is mostly an absorber.

And what the right settled for the TADs?

 

[TimoJ]

Measure like Dirac recommends, different heights, not like ChatGPT says.
Put the sub in the center of the rear wall.
There is no small/large settings with ART. Dirac sets them automatically, but you may have to tweak them after initial testing.

 

[PGAMiami]

Measure like Dirac recommends, different heights, not like ChatGPT says.
Put the sub in the center of the rear wall.
There is no small/large settings with ART. Dirac sets them automatically, but you may have to tweak them after initial testing.

isn't there a small/large setting on the denon? will dirac art just ignore it?

also what about the point about the side wall location having control of other bass modes vs the rear wall center