Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

[lessthanjoey]

If you insist on an objective measurement, the Denon X3800H measures pretty terribly

Denon AVR-X3800H Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3800H 9.4 Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and costs US $1,699. Not much to say about the look of the unit as it is pretty much similar/same as last generations. Here is the back panel...

www.audiosciencereview.com

That doesn't mean it cannot process Dolby Atmos tracks in movies.

It also doesn't mean it's audible (hint, it's not at those levels)

 

[NorthGraves]

It doesn't, I agree, but when I play Tidal on the Denon vs my stereo system, it's not even close.
YMMV for others, 100%.

 

[EWL5]

Absolutely, it does.
I like listening to stereo DSD 64-512 now and then, but the multi-channel formats - you are correct, I don't.

It doesn't mean that higher end pre-processors don't exist, they just don't cost $1,000 USD like my Denon.

Also, I'd be careful not to conflate the pure functionality, e.g., can it or can it not decode X, vs. the actual quality of the components, like the DAC #1 vs DAC #2 etc.

The quality of the 3800 should satisfy 99% of the population. As you are a self-proclaimed stereo purist, you have standards to uphold and I get it!

 

[NorthGraves]

I apologize, I shouldn't have mentioned it.
Let's focus on ART, please.

 

[kawauso]

Has anyone compared Dirac ART to OCA's A1 Evo Express in terms of sound quality improvement? I used A1 EVO Express, and I like the result and certainly the price. Has anyone used both?

In my bedroom system, the A1 Evo Express performed terribly.

Obsessive Compulsive Audiophile "OCA" Corrections - Categorization Tools Assistance

The .ady file is essentially a JSON data file. It stores all the FIR filters for every channel, among other settings. These filters are loaded and processed by the receiver exactly as they appear in the file. The real limitation comes from the total number of samples available in each filter...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[dlaloum]

Short version - the separate components are readily available, and you don't need to spend 10x the amount to get a MUCH better result, audibly, compared to any receiver.

As long as you don't want DSP...

If you want DSP as well - then that equation becomes more difficult... especially given you don't want to have multiple DAC/ADC/DAC cycles...

You want to take your digital source, decode it appropriately (into whatever number of channels), apply EQ (inc bass management as appropriate) and room treatment DSP.... and then send it to your DAC.

Show me an affordable 9 to 11 channel means of doing that without a receiver!

Some people are achieving higher objective performance by going for AVP's like the Marantz A10, or the StormAudio and Trinnov products... but we are talking 10x the price - especially once you factor in power amp requirements as well.

I would have liked to do it with a Home Theatre / Media PC, but the decoding of Atmos / DTS, becomes problematic, and ease of use in a home environment with other non technical users, is also difficult.

 

[kawauso]

I apologize, I shouldn't have mentioned it.
Let's focus on ART, please.

Why don’t you try a blind test?
Comparing entire systems takes time because switching between setups is a hassle, but testing just the AVR and a standalone audio amplifier is relatively easy.

Denon AVR-X3800H Review

Everything was level matched with spl meter, SPL meters are not accurate enough to prevent level differences causing audible tonality differences (not heard as a level difference). The only way to level match accurately enough is with a test tone and voltmeter at the speaker terminals. And then...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Also, the reason the X3800H has a low SINAD is due to distortion.
Please test how far you can actually hear that distortion.

Listening Test - Test Setup

www.klippel.de

 

[kawauso]

Here are my test results.
With music program material, I’m not confident that I can detect distortion even around –15 dB.

 

[dlaloum]

Why don’t you try a blind test?
Comparing entire systems takes time because switching between setups is a hassle, but testing just the AVR and a standalone audio amplifier is relatively easy.

Denon AVR-X3800H Review

Everything was level matched with spl meter, SPL meters are not accurate enough to prevent level differences causing audible tonality differences (not heard as a level difference). The only way to level match accurately enough is with a test tone and voltmeter at the speaker terminals. And then...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Also, the reason the X3800H has a low SINAD is due to distortion.
Please test how far you can actually hear that distortion.

Listening Test - Test Setup

www.klippel.de

Yes - the X3800 has perfectly acceptable THD... albeit at the high end compared to SOTA gear.

The most audibly SINAD issue is noise, rather than distortion, and the X3800 is quite good in noise terms.

Basically I look at highly regarded components of my youth... the megabuck amps etc... of the 1980's - and their spec ratings in THD and noise, provide a damn good baseline. The X3800 is on a par with some of the best of the 1980's.... not too shabby for a mass market midrange receiver!

 

[tsammyc]

Absolutely, it does.
I like listening to stereo DSD 64-512 now and then, but the multi-channel formats - you are correct, I don't.

It doesn't mean that higher end pre-processors don't exist, they just don't cost $1,000 USD like my Denon.

Also, I'd be careful not to conflate the pure functionality, e.g., can it or can it not decode X, vs. the actual quality of the components, like the DAC #1 vs DAC #2 etc.

Not listening to multichannel music, you are missing a lot. Especially some of the older recordings on three track master tapes. A phantom center channel on a 2.0 system is sometimes hopeless. Auro 3D expands the soundstage beyond what expensive 2.0 speakers can do. It’s very good. However, without ART, multichannel music can be unfocused. With ART the sources are precisely located.

 

[tsammyc]

Short version - the separate components are readily available, and you don't need to spend 10x the amount to get a MUCH better result, audibly, compared to any receiver.

It’s true that I find my X3800H sounding a little better when I attach a $80 SMSL DAC to the CD input driven by an a WIIM mini. The X3800H has a good sounding amp section.

There is a huge difference in clarity of two channel music and tightness of bass between having ART on and off. Your PC driving separates cannot achieve this unless you have a perfect room.

IMHO if you have resonances in your room, you will get a better overall two channel music experience with the X3800H and ART than any separates you buy

 

[NorthGraves]

I'd just focus on ART for multichannel.
My two rooms were built with two completely different end results in mind, so no point trying to compare.

E.g. the HT fronts are power-hungry but lower quality Polk Audio RTi9, whereas the stereo setup are very nuanced KEF R3.
HT is driven by Class D amps, the stereo by a Class AB amp.
The HT pre is Denon, the stereo pre is a Tube one.

It is really apples and oranges at this point.

One other observation - I have 13 speakers (including 2 subs) in 7 groups (ART).

How would the whole "support" idea even work if I were to listen to stereo music on the Denon?
I tried all the pseudo stereo formats, didn't really like them.
Multi-channel stereo, Auro 3D etc.

I kinda thought ART with all the support groups makes no sense for stereo (two speakers), or am I missing something?

 

[kawauso]

I'd just focus on ART for multichannel.
My two rooms were built with two completely different end results in mind, so no point trying to compare.

E.g. the HT fronts are power-hungry but lower quality Polk Audio RTi9, whereas the stereo setup are very nuanced KEF R3.
HT is driven by Class D amps, the stereo by a Class AB amp.
The HT pre is Denon, the stereo pre is a Tube one.

It is really apples and oranges at this point.

One other observation - I have 13 speakers (including 2 subs) in 7 groups (ART).

How would the whole "support" idea even work if I were to listen to stereo music on the Denon?
I tried all the pseudo stereo formats, didn't really like them.
Multi-channel stereo, Auro 3D etc.

I kinda thought ART with all the support groups makes no sense for stereo (two speakers), or am I missing something?

ART is highly effective even in a stereo setup, and it can significantly improve both the frequency response and decay with just two speakers.
I recommend bringing the X3800H into the room where your R3s are placed and trying it there.
If you like the natural tone of your speakers, limiting Dirac’s correction range to around 300 Hz is a good approach.
With the R3, you can leave a bit of the room’s natural character while still getting a smooth, gently downward-sloping response.

『Dirac ART Field Report: JBL Room in 2.0 Mode』

Table of Contents Overview Effect in 2.0 Configuration Spectrum Changes Subwoof…

ameblo.jp

 

[kawauso]

I found a fun illumination device called the Fosi AH-01A.
Since Christmas is coming soon, I decided to order eight of them.

 

[NorthGraves]

ART is highly effective even in a stereo setup, and it can significantly improve both the frequency response and decay with just two speakers.

But the concept of the support groups wouldn't apply, would it? If only two speakers.

 

[OCA]

In my bedroom system, the A1 Evo Express performed terribly.

You are embarrassing it!

 

[kawauso]

You are embarrassing it!

The default target curve is really bad.
I’ll probably never test the A1 Evo again.

 

[OCA]

The default target curve is really bad.
I’ll probably never test the A1 Evo again.
View attachment 495951

Boosting 16Hz room mode dip by +10dB of a sub that rolls of at 35Hz has been a great DSP decision by Dirac. Enjoy listening to your walls , you paid for it

 

[kawauso]

Boosting 16Hz room mode dip by +10dB of a sub that rolls of at 35Hz has been a great DSP decision by Dirac. Enjoy listening to your walls , you paid for it

The Dayton UM12-22 passive subwoofer works great with Dirac.
You say to enjoy the sound of the walls, but for that, the result feels almost too clean (lol).
By the way, I can’t enjoy music with A1 Evo, but with MultEQ-X it’s perfectly enjoyable.

 

[OCA]

The Dayton UM12-22 passive subwoofer works great with Dirac.
You say to enjoy the sound of the walls, but for that, the result feels almost too clean (lol).
By the way, I can’t enjoy music with A1 Evo, but with MultEQ-X it’s perfectly enjoyable.
View attachment 495963
View attachment 495964

You should try the built-in 5-band graphic equalizer, too. They say its bedroom performance is second to none.