Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

[agentcooper]

What is your before sub 20hz according to Dirac? How much output does Dirac show before you apply ART. I may have missed it, but I didn’t see your before measurement of under 20hz measurement.

Good reminder. Screenshots attached. ART put Sub 1 at -2dB and Sub 2 and -5db.

I could tune Sub 2 a bit (by removing washers from the passive radiators) but I'm not sure that would help.

I've seen so many corrected ART graphs with that are rolled off at 20Hz I think it is an intended outcome of the software. Perhaps having a flat FR there is just a matter of passing through the infra bass and getting lucky with how it works in the room.

 

[kawauso]

Good reminder. Screenshots attached. ART put Sub 1 at -2dB and Sub 2 and -5db.

I could tune Sub 2 a bit (by removing washers from the passive radiators) but I'm not sure that would help.

I've seen so many corrected ART graphs with that are rolled off at 20Hz I think it is an intended outcome of the software. Perhaps having a flat FR there is just a matter of passing through the infra bass and getting lucky with how it works in the room.

Could you drag Subwoofer Groups 1 and 2 apart to separate them, then set Subwoofer 1 (the one with the purple graph) to a support range of 20–150 Hz with infra-bass enabled, and set Subwoofer 2 to 30–150 Hz?
This might improve the infra-bass a bit.

 

[agentcooper]

@kawauso yes, that did improve the infra-bass. Just for yucks I put the separated Sub 2 down to 20Hz just to see what that would do. That's the second image.

I don't mean to be spamming this thread! Hope exploring these nuances is mildly interesting to others.

 

[Dj7675]

@kawauso yes, that did improve the infra-bass. Just for yucks I put the separated Sub 2 down to 20Hz just to see what that would do. That's the second image.

I don't mean to be spamming this thread! Hope exploring these nuances is mildly interesting to others.

These are the exact kinds of things I think are interesting… success, failures, questions, setup… Infrabass in particular is a big issue for many. They plan and put in place subs to get to single digits … but by default ART removes it. Showing some success getting it back is great.

 

[kawauso]

@kawauso yes, that did improve the infra-bass. Just for yucks I put the separated Sub 2 down to 20Hz just to see what that would do. That's the second image.

I don't mean to be spamming this thread! Hope exploring these nuances is mildly interesting to others.

Glad to hear the improvement!
Don’t forget to set the subwoofer support for all groups.
The LFE channel uses a pretty punchy shelf, but I assume you’ll set a more moderate shelf for channels like the LR group. In that case, the curve around 20 Hz should end up flatter.

 

[mmares056]

A normalized spectrogram is a bit easier to read, but it doesn’t really tell you much.
Focus on the FR and the decay instead.

I find the Spectro graph very useful. I look at Spectro Wavelet to see how well time aligned my system is.

 

[mmares056]

Spectrogram of ART v No Eq

Not expecting ART to be worse!
View attachment 494648View attachment 494649

That's a well time aligned system with ART.

 

[kawauso]

I find the Spectro graph very useful. I look at Spectro Wavelet to see how well time aligned my system is.

The visual appearance of a Spectro Wavelet has very weak correlation with how it actually sounds.
And when comparing two measurements, even a slight tilt in the Peak Energy Time of one of them dominates the entire picture.
If the PET is not aligned between the two captures, the other differences are effectively impossible to see.
In my view, it's basically something that just looks nice on the screen and makes you feel a bit happy, nothing more.

 

[smygolf]

Could you drag Subwoofer Groups 1 and 2 apart to separate them, then set Subwoofer 1 (the one with the purple graph) to a support range of 20–150 Hz with infra-bass enabled, and set Subwoofer 2 to 30–150 Hz?
This might improve the infra-bass a bit.

Good find !

 

[kawauso]

Good find !

Ahem. Kawauso-chan did a great job.
Since ART does not control anything below 20 Hz, you really need to try different approaches if you want proper infra-bass.
Even the subwoofer gain before calibration can change the result.
Infra-bass behavior in ART is full of mysteries.

If you turn Infra Bass off, everything below 150 Hz will be fully controlled by ART, so giving up is one option too.
(But when it’s off, it always feels like something is missing, doesn’t it? lol)

 

[patoulol]

Where do I check the "infra bass" I can't find it.

 

[fzst]

After reading the recent discussion in here, I checked out one of the most intense deep bass demos I have: the BR of Pulse. Now with the server room scene I did definitely find a scene that still sounds/feels way more intense with DLBC than with ART. With DLBC, I can really feel the pulses - even at my pretty low volume levels, ART kinda touches on the tactile sensation but lags way behind BC. I got home very late last night so I wasn't motivated to get my mic out but I will do an RTA of that scene to see if/how much deep bass is missing with ART or if it just gives me a different sensation (although I'm not sure how reliable RTAs are that deep down). I get some ULF with ART and I thought that the FR looked good enough but it's certainly a huge difference in that scene and I strongly suspect that's due to the lower bass level @ ~17Hz where that spike is in that scene but I'll have to make an ART to check.

It's certainly fun to feel that deep bass with BC but unfortunately it doesn't last long, as soon as there is a more dynamic bass signal again, ART just sounds better.

 

[kawauso]

Where do I check the "infra bass" I can't find it.

The Infra Bass checkbox is located here.
It becomes available once you set the support range of a speaker down to 20 Hz.

Good find !

On my JBL system as well, the normal setting (+3 dB) produces a smooth curve,
but with the “kawauso Happy Trigger” setting (+12 dB),
ART can’t control the infra-bass properly.
Rather than shaking objects in the room for no reason, it might be better to just turn it off.

 

[kawauso]

After reading the recent discussion in here, I checked out one of the most intense deep bass demos I have: the BR of Pulse. Now with the server room scene I did definitely find a scene that still sounds/feels way more intense with DLBC than with ART. With DLBC, I can really feel the pulses - even at my pretty low volume levels, ART kinda touches on the tactile sensation but lags way behind BC. I got home very late last night so I wasn't motivated to get my mic out but I will do an RTA of that scene to see if/how much deep bass is missing with ART or if it just gives me a different sensation (although I'm not sure how reliable RTAs are that deep down). I get some ULF with ART and I thought that the FR looked good enough but it's certainly a huge difference in that scene and I strongly suspect that's due to the lower bass level @ ~17Hz where that spike is in that scene but I'll have to make an ART to check.

View attachment 494762

View attachment 494761

It's certainly fun to feel that deep bass with BC but unfortunately it doesn't last long, as soon as there is a more dynamic bass signal again, ART just sounds better.

I think your current ART settings are fine.
For that specific movie, you could simply raise the subwoofer level using the channel level adjustment.
fzst, rather than trying to fight infrabass with ART, let’s focus on the range where ART actually works.
Please try the “kawauso Happy Trigger” setting for the LFE channel.

 

[tsammyc]

I implemented Dirac ART on my Denon X3800H and Auro 3D sounds incredible. I've liked Auro 3D since I got my Denon X3800H in terms of soundstage expansion, but the 3D projection of two channel music into nine channels and multiple subwoofers was always going to be problematic, with confused separation, balance and clarity. Dirac ART cleans that up and you can pinpoint instruments now, while the subwoofer integration is also flawless. The soundstage continues to feel 10 meters tall with the four ceiling speakers firing and everything feels precise and balanced. In particular multiple percussion instruments, bass drums, snare drums and cymbals are all very clear despite all the speakers working. It works even better when you are sitting on a recliner rather than upright because the Atmos speakers are firing more at your face and there is great immersion.

I been enjoying my multichannel SACD collection, from my UHD Blu ray player with AKM DACs for years, but with Auro 3D/Dirac this sounds a level beyond that, and from two channel recordings no less. A good recording to test this Auro 3D/Dirac wonder is Sticks to Me by Charly Antolini. It's available on Tidal. Pink Floyd is also great.

 

[Denon545]

I think your current ART settings are fine.
For that specific movie, you could simply raise the subwoofer level using the channel level adjustment.
fzst, rather than trying to fight infrabass with ART, let’s focus on the range where ART actually works.
Please try the “kawauso Happy Trigger” setting for the LFE channel.

Just curious, at what master volume level do you listen at with the +12db target curve? About the max I’ve gone is a +6db bass curve, and anything over the master volume of -10 on the AVR sounds like it might blow my house apart!

 

[TimoJ]

I was listening to 2-channel music and adjusted the loudness and bass controls to get proper low-end bass for a certain music track. Later I checked with REW, and it looked like this:

 

[smygolf]

I was listening to 2-channel music and adjusted the loudness and bass controls to get proper low-end bass for a certain music track. Later I checked with REW, and it looked like this:


View attachment 494888

 

[kawauso]

Just curious, at what master volume level do you listen at with the +12db target curve? About the max I’ve gone is a +6db bass curve, and anything over the master volume of -10 on the AVR sounds like it might blow my house apart!

I watch movies at a volume of about 88 (+8 dB), and at night I keep it lower, around 78.
My JBL room is just a regular living room, so things rattle quite a lot.
With the lower setting, dialogue sits around 75 dB, but since I use LFE at +12 and no dynamic compression, it still has plenty of impact.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1996433427437142260

In the end, I changed the LFE channel’s house-curve shelf from +10 to +12.

 

[fzst]

I think your current ART settings are fine.
For that specific movie, you could simply raise the subwoofer level using the channel level adjustment.
fzst, rather than trying to fight infrabass with ART, let’s focus on the range where ART actually works.
Please try the “kawauso Happy Trigger” setting for the LFE channel.

You are right indeed, in like 99% of the content I listened to /watched, ART simply sounds better: this is pretty much the first scene I found where ART is kinda lacking deep down since I figured out my ART-settings a few weeks ago. So this is certainly no reason to switch back, I still think it's worth investigating though so I took some measurements yesterday to see what was happening.

In the RTA graphs I got while playing the Pulse scene (I came home very late again last night so I couldn't play really loud, that's at MV -30) there is indeed a very significant difference:

Contrary to what I was expecting, the difference doesn't really lie in the extension but rather in the whole bass level. This is very strange indeed - no idea why the levels would be so different since the FR-graphs in sweeps look very similar:

Also the distinct spike at 60Hz is very strange... maybe this was a measurement error? I have no idea how accurate an RTA- measurement is with all the speakers playing in a surround sound setting..? It certainly lines up with what I was hearing/feeling though. BTW: the -18db and -24db settings didn't really make a difference:


What's also strange is that in another scene (Monster Hunter when the Diablo first appears), I quickly measured to double check, the LFE-levels were pretty similar: