Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

[mmares056]

So does that mean you’re no longer going to be using BEQ?

Not necessarily. First I'm going to try to get everything dialed in with ART. After that I'll look at ezBEQ integration if feasible.

 

[notmyname]

Not necessarily. First I'm going to try to get everything dialed in with ART. After that I'll look at ezBEQ integration if feasible.

I think if you have previously been using it then you will want to continue, especially give the 20hz filter that ART applies.
Might as well just leave the mini dsp in the chain but just have it set for pass through until you’re ready

 

[kawauso]

My Denon X3800h came in and I plan on taking the initial measurements tomorrow to start playing with ART. There is no need to leave the miniDSP in the chain because it is no longer needed with ART, correct?

Nice!
Hurry and get it set up so you can become the 27th member of the ART Lover Club.

 

[dlaloum]

Nice!
Hurry and get it set up so you can become the 27th member of the ART Lover Club.

Mine just arrived too... (x4800) but by the time I get the house to myself, I'll be the 127th member....

 

[kawauso]

Mine just arrived too... (x4800) but by the time I get the house to myself, I'll be the 127th member....

Sounds good! I have no idea about your house situation, but I’ve already added you to the members on my own,

 

[KenMasters]

Living on the edge for audio science ... thanks!

Reporting back, by ear whether the LS50s are limited to 80Hz or 50Hz I don't hear a difference, although I did see the woofers moving on occasion when set to 50Hz. You can see the difference in filters here:

Left Speaker Filters

Left Sub Filters


Right Speaker Filters

Right Sub Filters


Though despite the differences, they measure virtually identically, there really is no point in posting the graphs. In evidence, here is the Spectrogam:

Right


Left


So for me, I'd rather err on the side of caution and stick with the lower limit of 80Hz.

EDIT: Thinking about it and looking at the sub filters, ART seems to prioritise using the speakers over the subs, presumably to preserve channel separation. In my case my three subs are located in similar positions to my LCRs, so not surprising the results are mirrored - your milage may vary.

 

[ban25]

Reporting back, by ear whether the LS50s are limited to 80Hz or 50Hz I don't hear a difference, although I did see the woofers moving on occasion when set to 50Hz. You can see the difference in filters here:

Left Speaker Filters
View attachment 494397 View attachment 494399
Left Sub Filters
View attachment 494398 View attachment 494400

Right Speaker Filters
View attachment 494401 View attachment 494402
Right Sub Filters
View attachment 494403 View attachment 494404

Though despite the differences, they measure virtually identically, there really is no point in posting the graphs. In evidence, here is the Spectrogam:

Right
View attachment 494405 View attachment 494406

Left
View attachment 494407 View attachment 494408

So for me, I'd rather err on the side of caution and stick with the lower limit of 80Hz.

Yeah, if you can see the mid-woofer moving, you are essentially at 100% distortion, so better off to set the crossover at 80 Hz.

 

[napfkuchen]

Reporting back, by ear whether the LS50s are limited to 80Hz or 50Hz I don't hear a difference, although I did see the woofers moving on occasion when set to 50Hz. You can see the difference in filters here:


So for me, I'd rather err on the side of caution and stick with the lower limit of 80Hz.

EDIT: Thinking about it and looking at the sub filters, ART seems to prioritise using the speakers over the subs, presumably to preserve channel separation. In my case my three subs are located in similar positions to my LCRs, so not surprising the results are mirrored - your milage may vary.

Excellent, thank you! My two subwoofers are also placed beside the front speakers, so I'll keep the lower support limit at 80 Hz.

 

[Denon545]

I’ve been fooling with stereo equipment since before there was the internet. Not an expert by any means, but I’d like to think I know good sound when I hear it. When I listen to music with ART, it has blended my two subs and towers into what I can only describe as sounding like I am listening to two giant studio monitors. Just track after track of hifi bliss. I have no skin in the game but I do hope more people get to experience this. I’m somewhat amazed that something like this exists on my lowly Denon 3800

 

[gepgep]

Spectrogram of ART v No Eq

Not expecting ART to be worse!

 

[kawauso]

Spectrogram of ART v No Eq

Not expecting ART to be worse!
View attachment 494648View attachment 494649

A normalized spectrogram is a bit easier to read, but it doesn’t really tell you much.
Focus on the FR and the decay instead.

 

[agentcooper]

Spectrogram of ART v No Eq

Not expecting ART to be worse!

There are a couple of peaks in your ART graph but overall it looks better in a couple of ways to me. There's a lot more energy from ~30hz to ~130Hz, and it is a more even / flat decay time. Maybe there's a way to tweak to tame those peaks.

As expected, ART is cutting off everything below 20Hz. (I'm assuming you didn't check the box to let infra bass pass though.)

The other thing I've gathered about ART is that it rolls off before 20Hz no matter what I do. I see this in your graph too.

 

[agentcooper]

Here are some attempts to get the measured FR flat to 20Hz. It ain't happening as far as I can tell.

• First graph is a target curve +7.8dB at 20Hz. (This is what I've settled on for my actual implementation for now.)
• Second graph is dragging the target curve to +10dB at 20Hz. The corrected curve is a little higher.
• Third graph looks like dangerous territory! Even jacking up the target curve to potentially woofer destroying levels, the corrected curve is only about +6 dB.

Has anyone sorted out a way to get those dBs at 20Hz?

 

[Dj7675]

Have you tried enabling infra and measuring to see what the response is in room with infra enabled? Some people it looks pretty good and for others, not so much. Also, if you have a way to do any pre or post eq of sub 20hz frequencies, that may work too. For example if you have independent EQ in subs (for example SVS, Perlisten, etc).

 

[smygolf]

Here are some attempts to get the measured FR flat to 20Hz. It ain't happening as far as I can tell.

• First graph is a target curve +7.8dB at 20Hz. (This is what I've settled on for my actual implementation for now.)
• Second graph is dragging the target curve to +10dB at 20Hz. The corrected curve is a little higher.
• Third graph looks like dangerous territory! Even jacking up the target curve to potentially woofer destroying levels, the corrected curve is only about +6 dB.

Has anyone sorted out a way to get those dBs at 20Hz?

One way that could to work is to sweep the subs at a higher volume then the rest
It worked with DL/DLBC, but ART does its own thing

One trick that could work is to only use the subs as support, after calibration you raise the volume on all the subs
Also you have to remember that Dirac shows you a approximation

 

[kawauso]

Here are some attempts to get the measured FR flat to 20Hz. It ain't happening as far as I can tell.

• First graph is a target curve +7.8dB at 20Hz. (This is what I've settled on for my actual implementation for now.)
• Second graph is dragging the target curve to +10dB at 20Hz. The corrected curve is a little higher.
• Third graph looks like dangerous territory! Even jacking up the target curve to potentially woofer destroying levels, the corrected curve is only about +6 dB.

Has anyone sorted out a way to get those dBs at 20Hz?

In my bedroom, it doesn’t produce much below 20 Hz, but in the JBL room it comes out clearly.
You need to enable the Infra-Bass checkbox.
Frequencies below 20 Hz are outside ART’s control range, so even if the subwoofer itself has enough capability, other variables can prevent that region from showing up.

 

[agentcooper]

Thanks, all. I'l play around more. I have tried the infra bass check box and it just gives me a nasty looking lump below 20Hz similar to @kawauso 's blue FR.

Maybe I need that third sub! Regardless, I want to hear / feel that JBL room. Nice work @kawauso

 

[smygolf]

Thanks, all. I'l play around more. I have tried the infra bass check box and it just gives me a nasty looking lump below 20Hz similar to @kawauso 's blue FR.

Maybe I need that third sub! Regardless, I want to hear that JBL room. Nice work @kawauso

Also, Art uses 1 sub as main LFE the rest are just support, you do loose a bit of output
If someone Realy want to have 20dB raise in the bass it is better to lower the rest and leave the bass at +10dB

DLBC, pro subs in action, this is close to what REWwill show

 

[kawauso]

Thanks, all. I'l play around more. I have tried the infra bass check box and it just gives me a nasty looking lump below 20Hz similar to @kawauso 's blue FR.

Maybe I need that third sub! Regardless, I want to hear / feel that JBL room. Nice work @kawauso

You don’t need to worry about irregularities around 20 Hz, as they have very little impact.
Just choose whichever sounds better to you with Infra Bass turned on or off.
I don’t think you need to add more subwoofers, but if you do, I recommend extremely powerful models such as the PB17-Ultra or the JTR Captivator 2400.

 

[Dj7675]

Thanks, all. I'l play around more. I have tried the infra bass check box and it just gives me a nasty looking lump below 20Hz similar to @kawauso 's blue FR.

Maybe I need that third sub! Regardless, I want to hear / feel that JBL room. Nice work @kawauso

What is your before sub 20hz according to Dirac? How much output does Dirac show before you apply ART. I may have missed it, but I didn’t see your before measurement of under 20hz measurement.