Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

[EWL5]

I am following this thread as I will be installing second HT next year, and I want to understand whether Denon/Marantz implementation of ART suits my needs [my other setup is fully blown Trinnov with Waveforming]. I can see ART working as intended in terms of bass correction, which is good. My recent audition of Storm based ART install was not super convincing, but this would have more to do with that room acoustics above ART frequency than ART itself [in other words, bass was much drier than rest of the frequencies and it sounded off]

I am not interested in Storm, as for similar money I can get Trinnov Alt 16/Ci. Would be more than happy to go Marantz AV10 route, if it ticks most important boxes. I can live with 4 subs limit of AV10 [I would just go raw power route with 4x21in or maybe some 4xdouble 18in boxes]
One of them is the ability to deliver proper bass, and specifically to handle BEQ.

As some of the movie fans know, we are being served bass neutered versions of most movies recently, especially with new 4K Atmos releases [see example of Master and Commander]. Atrocity like this is norm, rather than exception and it defeats all the purpose of having high performant HT, you could stay with the soundbar under your TV. People go out their way and make lot of effort to get their systems playing down to single digits and is worth nothing, as their is no content for it, sadly.

So would Marantz/Denon be able in some half practical manner address this issue - I am looking for ability to quickly adjust the output with filter like this. [My current Trinnov routine is to have presets with 6 9 and 12dB LS on 22Hz and I swithc them on, in controlled manner, if needed for specific movie and can adjust with PEQ in 3 minutes for anything more]

Thsi leads me to another question - is there any way to see, which filters are being applied already on low end? I would prefer not to blindly add anothr 15db on top of existing e.g. 10dB ART filter already there.

thanks for clarification.

View attachment 488839

Love the shoutout to Master and Commander as it was a demo movie in my older system for a while. The Galapagos Island scene is still one of my favs in all of cinema!

Based on your comments, I think you'll enjoy DLBC but perhaps not ART (especially at its default "dry" configuration). Best thing you can do is do a trial on both and see which one makes more sense for your situation. If you're in the States, Black Friday is 3 weeks away!

 

[Oddball]

I am following this thread as I will be installing second HT next year, and I want to understand whether Denon/Marantz implementation of ART suits my needs [my other setup is fully blown Trinnov with Waveforming]. I can see ART working as intended in terms of bass correction, which is good. My recent audition of Storm based ART install was not super convincing, but this would have more to do with that room acoustics above ART frequency than ART itself [in other words, bass was much drier than rest of the frequencies and it sounded off]

I am not interested in Storm, as for similar money I can get Trinnov Alt 16/Ci. Would be more than happy to go Marantz AV10 route, if it ticks most important boxes. I can live with 4 subs limit of AV10 [I would just go raw power route with 4x21in or maybe some 4xdouble 18in boxes]
One of them is the ability to deliver proper bass, and specifically to handle BEQ.

As some of the movie fans know, we are being served bass neutered versions of most movies recently, especially with new 4K Atmos releases [see example of Master and Commander]. Atrocity like this is norm, rather than exception and it defeats all the purpose of having high performant HT, you could stay with the soundbar under your TV. People go out their way and make lot of effort to get their systems playing down to single digits and is worth nothing, as their is no content for it, sadly.

So would Marantz/Denon be able in some half practical manner address this issue - I am looking for ability to quickly adjust the output with filter like this. [My current Trinnov routine is to have presets with 6 9 and 12dB LS on 22Hz and I swithc them on, in controlled manner, if needed for specific movie and can adjust with PEQ in 3 minutes for anything more]

Thsi leads me to another question - is there any way to see, which filters are being applied already on low end? I would prefer not to blindly add anothr 15db on top of existing e.g. 10dB ART filter already there.

thanks for clarification.

View attachment 488839

Not really sure what are you looking for, but this is what D&M can do,

It does not support BEQ.

It does not have ability to use PEQ filters before Dirac.

There are 6 slots you can use for Dirac. There are 5 slots that you can use for fast switching between them.

You should name your Dirac projects accordingly so you know what boost are they using. Not really difficult.

Dirac ART boosts the bass to +12 dB. That is quite a bit but some people still complain it is not enough. Workaround is to boost the bass at sub gain level. More you boost, less of the delay and other benefits from ART you get. I tried +10dB at the subs and it was not terrible, but it was definitively way to much to get ART benefits. In that case, Bass Control or or other EQ solutions might have worked as well.

EDIT: ART is not BEQ or acts in any way like that. For most it acts the opposite as it takes away the decay and the "fat" bass people use do be proud off.

 

[fzst]

Does anybody know if there is a way to "reverse engineer" a loaded filter? If I don't know the exact settings I used in a filter I'm currently using anymore?

 

[smygolf]

Does anybody know if there is a way to "reverse engineer" a loaded filter? If I don't know the exact settings I used in a filter I'm currently using anymore?

If the software cant find the original file, nope

 

[fzst]

If the software cant find the original file, nope

Dang, that's what I thought but I calculated so many filters during the last weeks, I have no idea which is which anymore...

 

[Fidji]

Love the shoutout to Master and Commander as it was a demo movie in my older system for a while. The Galapagos Island scene is still one of my favs in all of cinema!

Based on your comments, I think you'll enjoy DLBC but perhaps not ART (especially at its default "dry" configuration). Best thing you can do is do a trial on both and see which one makes more sense for your situation. If you're in the States, Black Friday is 3 weeks away!

Yes, indeed, I had M&C as my demo for quite some time [Mad Max Fury Road, Blade Runner 2049, Dune, Tron Legacy and coupe of others], so you can imagine, how disappointed I was, when Atmos release on 4K was such a let down - all the bass and what made DTS HD MA version on BR so good - disappeared. I was so dismayed, that I have even skipped Tron Legacy 4K, as it suffers from the same bass castration.

Actually - ART-like bass presentation is my long-term preference, this is why I have Double Bass Array [now in its Waveforming iteration]. Both SBA/DBA/WF and ART arrive to very similar outcome from different starting points. ART is “real-life-living-room-friendly”, while DBA/WF requires quite strict placement and works really well only with high subwoofer count, so more for dedicated/designed rooms. You will not see too many living rooms that could accommodate on/in-wall subs at 1/4 & 3/4 height of front wall.

Once you get used to clean, resonance-free low end, there is no way back.

 

[Fidji]

It does not support BEQ.

It does not have ability to use PEQ filters before Dirac.

Dirac ART boosts the bass to +12 dB. That is quite a bit but some people still complain it is not enough. Workaround is to boost the bass at sub gain level. More you boost, less of the delay and other benefits from ART you get. I tried +10dB at the subs and it was not terrible, but it was definitively way to much to get ART benefits. In that case, Bass Control or or other EQ solutions might have worked as well.

EDIT: ART is not BEQ or acts in any way like that. For most it acts the opposite as it takes away the decay and the "fat" bass people use do be proud off.

While I could live with 6 presets for 90% of real life scenarios, inability to do targeted source related adjustments within 2-3 min would be probably too much of a compromise [I think now]

Maybe bit of confusion in terms what I am looking for - BEQ has nothing to do with “fat” “dry” or even with individual bass preferences. BEQ is database of custom filters - for each movie release you have set of filters, that brings back original theatric content. Nothing more. It is also independent from platform, DRC software.

BEQCatalogue

beqcatalogue.readthedocs.io

When people are not happy about the bass in lot of the cases they do not realize, that first and foremost there is no bass in the movie they try to play. Even movies, that are considered reference e.g. Dune 2 do suffer from this neutered bass to some extent. I think it is pity, if you spend lot of time and effort to have best possible setup, only to be left with poor experience. But if somebody is OK with “Disney/Netflix” 7.1.2 compressed Atmos, then probably it does not matter.

You can add sub levels, tweak target curves, be mad at Dirac for not supporting infra frequencies - but if the content is not there, all is futile. Similar to 2CH - you can have stereo for million euros and compressed loudness war recording with DR5 will still sound like sh..t. If publisher decide to cut 20dB below 30Hz - you could as well save money on HT and be happy with 10 in sub, as it will make no difference in the end.

Technically - you need to have ability to EQ after DRC run, and in most of normal sized room it will not have any effect on decay times, as you are working below first modal frequency. You can either have it directly in your processor or deploy workarounds like MiniDsp Flex between processor and subs.

 

[peng]

Not really sure what are you looking for, but this is what D&M can do,

It does not support BEQ.

What is BEQ, biquad?

It does not have ability to use PEQ filters before Dirac.

True, but I don't really fully understand why people seem to think they need to use PEQ/Biquad if they have Audyssey MultEQ X, or Mult EQ Editor, or DLBC. I have had 3 minidsp, still have 2, and in my experience/use cases, I really don't need them for REQ/RC because I could do the same with Audyssey or DL, in fact XT32 and DLBC's BIQUAD equivalent are better because for example, if I understand right (and I am quite sure I do), one can even import the BIQUADs/PEQs from REW into MultEQ X, or key in one's own calculated frequency, gain and Q for each PEQ and MultEQ X (Mult EQ editor really is doing the same, behind the scene when you fiddle with the target cuve) will then create the FIR filters to implement the changes based on the imported/or keyed in parameters. To do that with just the regular PEQ/BIQUAD, the filters would be just IIR filters and you would be subjected to whatever limits/taps? that the device used would have imposed. So, in my opinion (informed opinion, I think but could be wrong obviously as I am no expert in this....., while it is true that you would not have the ability to use PEQs with Audyssey and Dirac in the exact true sense, but it is not a disadvantage as such, that it seems a lot of forum talks have us led to believe..

Dirac ART boosts the bass to +12 dB. That is quite a bit but some people still complain it is not enough. Workaround is to boost the bass at sub gain level. More you boost, less of the delay and other benefits from ART you get. I tried +10dB at the subs and it was not terrible, but it was definitively way to much to get ART benefits. In that case, Bass Control or or other EQ solutions might have worked as well.

Even 12 dB, could be too much for a lot of users who don't have high power subwoofer and huge floor standers, and of course very powerful amps such as kW rated monoblocks lol...

EDIT: ART is not BEQ or acts in any way like that. For most it acts the opposite as it takes away the decay and the "fat" bass people use do be proud off.

Yeah, many people are proud of such things, often only because of misconceptions spread on forums haha..

 

[kawauso]

While I could live with 6 presets for 90% of real life scenarios, inability to do targeted source related adjustments within 2-3 min would be probably too much of a compromise [I think now]

Maybe bit of confusion in terms what I am looking for - BEQ has nothing to do with “fat” “dry” or even with individual bass preferences. BEQ is database of custom filters - for each movie release you have set of filters, that brings back original theatric content. Nothing more. It is also independent from platform, DRC software.

BEQCatalogue

beqcatalogue.readthedocs.io

When people are not happy about the bass in lot of the cases they do not realize, that first and foremost there is no bass in the movie they try to play. Even movies, that are considered reference e.g. Dune 2 do suffer from this neutered bass to some extent. I think it is pity, if you spend lot of time and effort to have best possible setup, only to be left with poor experience. But if somebody is OK with “Disney/Netflix” 7.1.2 compressed Atmos, then probably it does not matter.

You can add sub levels, tweak target curves, be mad at Dirac for not supporting infra frequencies - but if the content is not there, all is futile. Similar to 2CH - you can have stereo for million euros and compressed loudness war recording with DR5 will still sound like sh..t. If publisher decide to cut 20dB below 30Hz - you could as well save money on HT and be happy with 10 in sub, as it will make no difference in the end.

Technically - you need to have ability to EQ after DRC run, and in most of normal sized room it will not have any effect on decay times, as you are working below first modal frequency. You can either have it directly in your processor or deploy workarounds like MiniDsp Flex between processor and subs.

View attachment 489118

On D&M processors, you can actually create movie-specific house curves and save/load them via USB, but it’s a bit inconvenient in practice.
Even if a movie has reduced bass, it’s difficult to restore it just by creating a curve that exceeds the +12 dB limit within Dirac.
Even with something like a miniDSP, you’d need to apply filters to all speakers, otherwise the MIMO effect would be weakened.
Since you mentioned you’re not interested in Storm, I’d say you might want to consider another Trinnov for your second HT — it already does exactly what you’re looking for.

 

[OCA]

While I could live with 6 presets for 90% of real life scenarios, inability to do targeted source related adjustments within 2-3 min would be probably too much of a compromise [I think now]

Maybe bit of confusion in terms what I am looking for - BEQ has nothing to do with “fat” “dry” or even with individual bass preferences. BEQ is database of custom filters - for each movie release you have set of filters, that brings back original theatric content. Nothing more. It is also independent from platform, DRC software.

BEQCatalogue

beqcatalogue.readthedocs.io

When people are not happy about the bass in lot of the cases they do not realize, that first and foremost there is no bass in the movie they try to play. Even movies, that are considered reference e.g. Dune 2 do suffer from this neutered bass to some extent. I think it is pity, if you spend lot of time and effort to have best possible setup, only to be left with poor experience. But if somebody is OK with “Disney/Netflix” 7.1.2 compressed Atmos, then probably it does not matter.

You can add sub levels, tweak target curves, be mad at Dirac for not supporting infra frequencies - but if the content is not there, all is futile. Similar to 2CH - you can have stereo for million euros and compressed loudness war recording with DR5 will still sound like sh..t. If publisher decide to cut 20dB below 30Hz - you could as well save money on HT and be happy with 10 in sub, as it will make no difference in the end.

Technically - you need to have ability to EQ after DRC run, and in most of normal sized room it will not have any effect on decay times, as you are working below first modal frequency. You can either have it directly in your processor or deploy workarounds like MiniDsp Flex between processor and subs.

View attachment 489118

This could be relevant to tactile transducers shaking the room in certain single digit frequencies but otherwise I really doubt many of us here in ASR (30 years old or older) are still able to hear anything below 25Hz. Low bass filters are very expensive in terms of computation and delay. Audyssey uses 1024 filter taps and DLBC uses 2048. Despite lots of tricks like polyphase decimation etc., their min bass frequency resolution is around 5Hz. Receivers need to buffer 4K video for the filter length so there's a limitation to number of FIR taps that can be practically used as well. I personally don't find it too irresponsible that studio mixers are adding a high pass filter around 20-25Hz. You certainly have a great system but most people would just experience boomy resonances lingering over the mids and highs with such content and would also have to limit volume levels to avoid extra distortion.

 

[smygolf]

Fyi

I did a comparison on how support behaves between 6dB and 10dB boost
LCR support only had 0,5dB differens and subs had 2-3dB
Decay was also pretty much the same

I like ART more for every day and there is music play 24/7

 

[Oddball]

I do know what BEQ is - but never used it. I used MultiEQ-X to boost the bass to the max on familiar titles though, so can understand the concept. Wet and dry is the lingo that came with Dirac ART. By tweaking, you can get the supposed "dryness" out of ART. I really don't find ART dry, and wet is what we had for ages so kind of going back in time. And for people thinking ART is dry would first advise to turn it up to the reference volume. Without any loudness feature in ART, this is the way it was meant to be consumed.

I also don't think it is best practice that content is stripped of the low end signal. Having it in there would represent best practice IMO. It is easy to filter it out but so difficult to "restore" it.

In my particular case, I can't really go over 100dB at 25hz as it starts wrecking my multi purpose room. But can see how others might want that experience.

I don't think we will be getting much more bells and whistles on the current D&M implementation of ART, but one thing they should do it enable tone controls on top of ART. They have it with Audy, so they just need to figure out how to push the same feature to ART.

Let's see where D&M takes us in the future. I would certainly hope that there will be much more to come from the next gen of products. I would love AV1 with 20 channels, at least some fully assignable, and more Storm like features, but would actually not want to pay $10K for it. And honestly really happy with AV 10.

 

[fzst]

I did a comparison on how support behaves between 6dB and 10dB boost
LCR support only had 0,5dB differens and subs had 2-3dB
Decay was also pretty much the same

Interesting...

I like ART more for every day and there is music play 24/7

Me too, honestly I'm just enjoying it atm, listening to a lot of music because it just sounds so good
No idea what I did wrong at the beginning but at my current settings, ART just wipes the floor with BC! BC might have a touch more earthquake feeling at the very low end but everything else just sounds better AND with impact/pressure.

 

[fzst]

ART seriously threatens my movie watching timeEverytime I sit down to watch a movie, I tune in some music first - and boom another hour is gone revisiting old favourites or discovering new artists on Spotify

 

[kawauso]

I saw a recommendation on AVS suggesting the following support level settings.
Has anyone actually tried these adjustments?

Front L, C, R, and Wide speakers: −5 dB
Base layer surround speakers: −9 dB
Rear surround speakers: −12 dB
Top Front / Top Side speakers: −6 dB
Top Rear speakers: −12 dB
Main LFE subwoofers: −24 dB
Support subwoofers: −19 to −24 dB (avoid −18 dB as it’s too dry)

 

[fzst]

I saw a recommendation on AVS suggesting the following support level settings.
Has anyone actually tried these adjustments?

Front L, C, R, and Wide speakers: −5 dB
Base layer surround speakers: −9 dB
Rear surround speakers: −12 dB
Top Front / Top Side speakers: −6 dB
Top Rear speakers: −12 dB
Main LFE subwoofers: −24 dB
Support subwoofers: −19 to −24 dB (avoid −18 dB as it’s too dry)

Some very intersting suggestions, pretty contrary to what is usually advised (no support from tops and center).
Hmm why not -18dB for LFE-support? Shouldn't raising it to -24dB make the sound even drier..?

 

[kawauso]

Some very intersting suggestions, pretty contrary to what is usually advised (no support from tops and center).
Hmm why not -18dB for LFE-support? Shouldn't raising it to -24dB make the sound even drier..?

I'm not entirely sure either, to be honest. Here's the AVS link for reference.

https://www.avsforum.com/posts/64239577/

For my setup, I’m currently using a −18 dB support level with a relatively small number of support speakers.

 

[AlArenal]

I'd be cautious to take such settings for gospel. Specific values without context (room, equipment), without explanation as why deviation from the standard settings was chosen, which effects were observed, etc. just lead to another set of values anyone can try. But it's just that, a try.

 

[smygolf]

Some very intersting suggestions, pretty contrary to what is usually advised (no support from tops and center).
Hmm why not -18dB for LFE-support? Shouldn't raising it to -24dB make the sound even drier..?

From my own test i guess it works something like this.

Minus value mostly effects the decay, more minus = lower decay.
But the volume the sub will be playing is roughly the same.

 

[peng]

On D&M processors, you can actually create movie-specific house curves and save/load them via USB, but it’s a bit inconvenient in practice.
Even if a movie has reduced bass, it’s difficult to restore it just by creating a curve that exceeds the +12 dB limit within Dirac.
Even with something like a miniDSP, you’d need to apply filters to all speakers, otherwise the MIMO effect would be weakened.
Since you mentioned you’re not interested in Storm, I’d say you might want to consider another Trinnov for your second HT — it already does exactly what you’re looking for.

I am not interested in the wet and dry thing anyway but curious about what BEQ is, so thanks for clarifying that for me. Not interested in using it either but happy to know roughly what it is now.