Isn't less bass also a function of having only one SW dedicated to LFE while the other SWs become support?
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Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac
- Thread starter Flak
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It is more to it then that.
Support both ads the get a good respons and shorten the delay.
Even with no subs and in stereo there is a gain, not much bit it is there.
In my system with 2 subs in a baffle wall and in parallel i could hit 130dB at 30hz.
With ART i run them as single subs and i added one standing 2met behind Mlp.
No baffle wall so it looses both output and output below ~30hz
I had my concern that i would loose output with only one sub as LFE.
But i still hit reference lvl and can go to 120dB @ 30hz - might get louder but i have not checked yet.
So i have lost the edge but the gain in quality are worth so much more.
I finally had a chance to play with Diract ART after I received my AVC-A10H last week. Few notes what I figured out trial and error way:
1. If you adjust any parameters outside Dirac after calibration, decay times become worse. It's logical, but I figured it out hard way. I tried to boost bass in Denon AVR app and in SVS app and at first I did not understand why it's happening.
2. Bass level has to be boosted by +3db to get a flat curve. I boosted my LCR and LFE by +9db and now it's pretty much okay.
3. I had to reduce SW support level to -6db in fronts and SW groups to get rid of a huge 6db dip in 35-60Hz region.
4. Still have far from ideal center channel response, but a speaker itself is not superb. My setup is in my signature.
5. Now the good part. I could not believe how decay times after calibration improved. My room is a living space with open kitchen, stairs to first floor, porcelain fireplace walls next to left speaker and many other highly reflective surfaces.
6. Atmos immersion improved a lot.
7. SW and fronts frequency response improved a lot as well. Did not have a chance yet neither to play nor measure surrounds or atmos speakers. I will upload REW measurements in few days.
1. If you adjust any parameters outside Dirac after calibration, decay times become worse. It's logical, but I figured it out hard way. I tried to boost bass in Denon AVR app and in SVS app and at first I did not understand why it's happening.
2. Bass level has to be boosted by +3db to get a flat curve. I boosted my LCR and LFE by +9db and now it's pretty much okay.
3. I had to reduce SW support level to -6db in fronts and SW groups to get rid of a huge 6db dip in 35-60Hz region.
4. Still have far from ideal center channel response, but a speaker itself is not superb. My setup is in my signature.
5. Now the good part. I could not believe how decay times after calibration improved. My room is a living space with open kitchen, stairs to first floor, porcelain fireplace walls next to left speaker and many other highly reflective surfaces.
6. Atmos immersion improved a lot.
7. SW and fronts frequency response improved a lot as well. Did not have a chance yet neither to play nor measure surrounds or atmos speakers. I will upload REW measurements in few days.
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For me, the key to getting full bass was in boosting all of my speakers, not just the subwoofers. Maybe, as TimoJ says, it's because the subwoofer channel in Dirac only outputs LFE, but I'm not sure that coincides with what I heard. I suspect it's more to do with how ART doesn't use a traditional crossover scheme, and something about the subwoofers being linked to a reference speaker, so at least the reference speaker also needs to exhibit the bass curve. Just speculating, no time to experiment.
I will add this - ART has finally unleashed mid-bass impact, and bass sweeps no longer have obvious nulls. I am extremely pleased with the bass quality and quantity.
I will add this - ART has finally unleashed mid-bass impact, and bass sweeps no longer have obvious nulls. I am extremely pleased with the bass quality and quantity.
130dB at 30Hz — that’s impressive!
I’m really curious how far ART can actually go in your setup.
By the way, when you compare ART with Bass Control, don’t you feel like ART gives noticeably lower distortion at the same SPL?
Congrats on getting the AVC-A10H and finally trying out ART!
You’ll probably notice the shorter decay times not just around the listening area but all over the living room.
It’s really amazing what it can do.
Oh girl, i can can farther than that but then i am close to hit the mechanical stop130dB at 30Hz — that’s impressive!
I’m really curious how far ART can actually go in your setup.
By the way, when you compare ART with Bass Control, don’t you feel like ART gives noticeably lower distortion at the same SPL?
Distorsion will off course be all over the place
Pic from intro from Edge of tomorrow - got a solid Clunk when the woofers hit the mechanical stop but they survived
And i will never do that again, my eye balls was shaking in tune with the sweep
I have not compared distorsion ART vs DLBC at volume, at 95dB it is pretty much the same
But i will do !
That’s not correct. In ART, all speakers and subwoofers interact and support each other dynamically.
There’s no fixed distinction like “main” or “support.”
Speakers with more output capability are simply given more work — that’s just natural role balancing.
And even with only one subwoofer, ART sounds surprisingly good — I really recommend trying it.
With Bass Control (BC), adding more subs made a big difference, but with ART, even a single subwoofer works together with the full-range speakers and still delivers great results.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...oom-treatment-art-by-dirac.40743/post-2436187
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@Oddball
I have been talking to support a couple of days, done some measuring and we have narrowed down the issue
1#
With a focused measurement - group one, no support from surround = the issue with it not boosting the highs
Turn on support, how much does not really matter = highs gets the boost and follows the target curve
2#
With 40cm between each measuring spot = the highs gets boosted with or without surround support
Fun fact - they asked about surround support even before they received the project !
I have been talking to support a couple of days, done some measuring and we have narrowed down the issue
1#
With a focused measurement - group one, no support from surround = the issue with it not boosting the highs
Turn on support, how much does not really matter = highs gets the boost and follows the target curve
2#
With 40cm between each measuring spot = the highs gets boosted with or without surround support
Fun fact - they asked about surround support even before they received the project !
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I just watched the opening of Edge of Tomorrow on Netflix — wow, that was incredible!
It’s midnight here so I had to keep the volume down, but I can’t wait to play it loud next time.
I made a special preset with LFE +10dB,
@Oddball — boosting the LFE like that is insanely fun!
This is definitely a setting worth saving. Man, I’m really glad I joined ASR
Dont tear down the houseI just watched the opening of Edge of Tomorrow on Netflix — wow, that was incredible!
It’s midnight here so I had to keep the volume down, but I can’t wait to play it loud next time.
I made a special preset with LFE +10dB,
@Oddball — boosting the LFE like that is insanely fun!
This is definitely a setting worth saving. Man, I’m really glad I joined ASR
View attachment 488126
My ex comes from the bluray, have in mind that the sweep also hits 15hz !
Might be different on Netflix version
That opening scene has bass down to around 10hz. Curious if you all are removing the infrasonic filter that ART places on the subwoofers? Personally, I don’t want my bass prematurely being rolled off. However, I haven’t tried ART yet, so I can’t say for certain that it would be an issue.
What is the consensus- infrasonic filter on or off? What do you all notice between the two settings?
My current setup is an electrostatic L/C/R passive soundbar from Martin Logan, ceiling surround speakers, and a DefTech SuperCube 1 SW.
My 20 year old setup is in boxes right now and comprised of mostly bi-polar DefTech speakers, w/built-in subs in the front mains and center. I could justify paying for DLBC and ART for that setup but not the current one.
I would say it depends on your subs.
Mine will die below 20hz so i uses Dirac as a highpass filter
Also, ART does not handle infra very well, with bass control or standard Dirac you can have a straight line to 10hz.
A friend with IB subs has a respons straight to 7hz and using DLBS to 10hz.
The way ART works right now i do not think it is possible.
If you boost SW group, it does not have any impact for 2 channel playback, I measured it. As somebody has mentioned, it's bad naming, it should be LFE, not SW group. If you want more bass for 2 channel, you have to boost fronts group bass.
Yep, I also have +12 for some older movies. Will have to revisit Edge of Tomorrow as well when I get the chance.I just watched the opening of Edge of Tomorrow on Netflix — wow, that was incredible!
It’s midnight here so I had to keep the volume down, but I can’t wait to play it loud next time.
I made a special preset with LFE +10dB,
@Oddball — boosting the LFE like that is insanely fun!
This is definitely a setting worth saving. Man, I’m really glad I joined ASR
View attachment 488126
Maybe but I guess most people apply the same target curve to all speakers (groups). But there is of course the possibility that some only apply a (different from stock) TC to one speaker group since they think that Dirac will automatically adopt it for all speaker groups. So maybe there are people out there who only applied a TC to either the LCR or the LFE groups and then miss the bass boost in either Stereo listening or in the LFE-channel.
Many thanks for sharing @smygolf.
Good to know that they are irroining out to bugs. I do support LR with surrounds and think also FWs (don't have my Mac with Dirac now). My measurements were thus far focused for one spot. Once I get that fully tuned in will do one preset for a wider listening area.
When you say not boosting the highs do you mean not doing any EQ in that range? Most people usually roll off highs a bit or a bit more depending on preferences.
I didn't say that. Subwoofer1 target curve adjusts only LFE channel's target curve.
But subwoofers, of course, are used also for the other channels. You adjust their individual target curves and that also affects subwoofers support curve/range for that speaker/speaker group.
When read what i wrote i understand your question, i am tired and Swedish
In my hypex amps i have a some correction on the tweeters since they fall a bit above 13khz.
But i did not have enough above 16k so i was lazy and let dirac sort it out - worked really well and the respons followed my target curve.
With ART and no surround support in group 1 it did not do anything above 16k even if my target curve said it should.
But if i added the surrounds, just a minor support from 100hz - 150hz, the respons above 16k follows the target curve spot on.
Buut.....
With a larger measuring area i never get the issue above 16k with or without surround support in group 1
And they did know about it cause it was the first question i got
I have been a good boy and fixed it in the Hypex dsp now so the problem is solved.
I still work with the support team just to help them.
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