Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

[fzst]

Thanks for sharing. That will be an interesting read. Wet and dry , already makes me want to stay in the middle.

Yeah, I read about that too but I think that was kind of a tone control al a bass/treble as an extra feature the D&M products don't have. I wish they had it though, I have to find an option for me as well to emulate that, I probably have to play with the support range... if I lower the support level to -12dB, the sound should get a little "wetter" right?

@kawauso BTW: I did listen to the two songs you used in your demo video and in in my setup in real live I actually did prefer the ART-presentation over the DLBC one with both - at least with the Storm Audio target curve.

 

[kawauso]

Yeah, I read about that too but I think that was kind of a tone control al a bass/treble as an extra feature the D&M products don't have. I wish they had it though, I have to find an option for me as well to emulate that, I probably have to play with the support range... if I lower the support level to -12dB, the sound should get a little "wetter" right?

@kawauso BTW: I did listen to the two songs you used in your demo video and in in my setup in real live I actually did prefer the ART-presentation over the DLBC one with both - at least with the Storm Audio target curve.

I tried changing all the support levels from –18 dB to –6 dB today,
but the frequency response just became a bit uneven, and the bass didn’t get any wetter.
It might be that achieving a wetter bass is only possible with Storm processors.

18 vs 6

18

6

 

[pollock0424]

I had high expectations from Dirac and DLBC, both were a let down. I just resort to placement, treatments, and REW sweeps/PEQ correction..

 

[kawauso]

Even when bumpy looks awesome.

Could you extend the decay to 10hz? Really interested in how it works in that range without ART. Mostly academic as sub 20hz is not really working for my room. There is a corner loaded position for one sub that could get me it that range, but also did a bit of a havoc in the past....

View attachment 486842

It looks like the window on the right side of the subwoofer is cracked.
Was that actually caused by the subwoofer?

 

[KenMasters]

Has the bass improved since then — no longer sounding like someone slapping the drywall behind the TV?

Much better, which makes sense, since the subs are actually active now. Still doesn't have the same impact as BC though, even after increasing the bass 1.5dB - I know it's what ART is supposed to do, but not liking the way the breaks are being applied to the bass, it sounds less cohesive. I'm going to do some more listening tests and take some measurements.

If it still feels a bit off with the default settings, please try the configuration in this post: https://ameblo.jp/kawauso9991/entry-12941004017.html

Thanks, I will definitely try your suggestions.

If the result still isn’t satisfying, you could try taking the center subwoofer out of the group and setting it as an independent support unit with a 20–80 Hz support range. That might balance things out.

Unfortunately you can't separate out subs with the Denon AVRs, but the Buchardt does a fair job of keeping pace with the Arendals and extends quite a bit further up the frequency range too (which is why I bought it originally (to cover that gap with the higher crossovers I was experimenting with).

 

[Oddball]

That is a nice convenience feature on Storm. D&M has that path as well so hopefully they will make it work with ART. But not really craving Storm to get this. Reminds me somewhat of smiley curves on ancient gear, but as with any medicine, if used responsibly could work well.

Storm has also ability to load PEQ filters before ART so another feature that - at least on its face - could come handy with D&M. I don't see actual reason for it in my system, but perhaps with less bass resources could work well.

Let's face it - Storm got major downgrade in the AV-10 / AH1 channel count. IMO, get D&M and get a vacation you always dreamed about for the difference. Need more channels? Yeah Storm and Trinnov tax applies on top of the tariffs.

 

[Oddball]

It looks like the window on the right side of the subwoofer is cracked.
Was that actually caused by the subwoofer?

Well, that will remain undetermined. But 2 days after moving the sub in that position - the crack happened, and there was some heavy bass workout as tried to see how another corner loaded sub would do.

Window people did say it could have happened from sound pressure as the seal was probably loose on the window.

 

[lessthanjoey]

Much better, which makes sense, since the subs are actually active now. Still doesn't have the same impact as BC though, even after increasing the bass 1.5dB - I know it's what ART is supposed to do, but not liking the way the breaks are being applied to the bass, it sounds less cohesive. I'm going to do some more listening tests and take some measurements.



Thanks, I will definitely try your suggestions.



Unfortunately you can't separate out subs with the Denon AVRs, but the Buchardt does a fair job of keeping pace with the Arendals and extends quite a bit further up the frequency range too (which is why I bought it originally (to cover that gap with the higher crossovers I was experimenting with).

You definitely can separate out subs on the Denons, what makes you think you can't?

 

[EWL5]

Unfortunately you can't separate out subs with the Denon AVRs, but the Buchardt does a fair job of keeping pace with the Arendals and extends quite a bit further up the frequency range too (which is why I bought it originally (to cover that gap with the higher crossovers I was experimenting with).

This makes no sense. There are 4 discrete SW outputs from the 3800 and higher!

 

[kawauso]

Much better, which makes sense, since the subs are actually active now. Still doesn't have the same impact as BC though, even after increasing the bass 1.5dB - I know it's what ART is supposed to do, but not liking the way the breaks are being applied to the bass, it sounds less cohesive. I'm going to do some more listening tests and take some measurements.



Thanks, I will definitely try your suggestions.



Unfortunately you can't separate out subs with the Denon AVRs, but the Buchardt does a fair job of keeping pace with the Arendals and extends quite a bit further up the frequency range too (which is why I bought it originally (to cover that gap with the higher crossovers I was experimenting with).

I’m also using a DENON!
You can separate the LFE group by dragging it with the mouse.
Also, there’s a small square box in the lower left corner — it’s easy to miss, but that’s the option to enable output below 20 Hz.

Well, that will remain undetermined. But 2 days after moving the sub in that position - the crack happened, and there was some heavy bass workout as tried to see how another corner loaded sub would do.

Window people did say it could have happened from sound pressure as the seal was probably loose on the window.

Even if the window seal was loose, that still seems quite possible.
Kind of legendary, honestly.

I’m using a DENON with a miniDSP Flex HTx to handle PEQ.
I’m not a big fan of full-band correction in Dirac.
The miniDSP is really convenient since I can switch between speaker and subwoofer presets all at once using the remote.
I also think the Denon/Marantz AVRs are quite user-friendly — the preset management, quick select buttons, and the ability to save and load settings via USB work great.

 

[fzst]

I reinstalled Dirac, took new measurements and subs are now active and operating as they should post calibration.

I'm glad that it works now. At least I know now, that I'm not the only one who needed new measurements I didn't hear of anyone else who had the same problem...

Actually now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure I had the same problem as you and my subs just did't play at all... I didn't check that since I only did calculate the ART filters exported them and did some confirmation measurements in REW to see what it did - and it did look completely broken - now that I know your story I remembered that the curve I was getting resembled the FR of my LCRs without any subwoofer support and room correction applied - I just didn't recognise it since even my small monitors go down pretty deep due to roomgain. I didn't think of checking if the subs were even playing though, I just measured and tried to trouble shoot with all kinds of different settings in ART.
Maybe I had the same problem as you..?

 

[KenMasters]

You definitely can separate out subs on the Denons, what makes you think you can't?

When I try, this happens:

I assume it's because the Denon, despite separating out distances and levels, treats subs as one unit for calibration.

I'm glad that it works now. At least I know now, that I'm not the only one who needed new measurements I didn't hear of anyone else who had the same problem...

Actually now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure I had the same problem as you and my subs just did't play at all... I didn't check that since I only did calculate the ART filters exported them and did some confirmation measurements in REW to see what it did - and it did look completely broken - now that I know your story I remembered that the curve I was getting resembled the FR of my LCRs without any subwoofer support and room correction applied - I just didn't recognise it since even my small monitors go down pretty deep due to roomgain. I didn't think of checking if the subs were even playing though, I just measured and tried to trouble shoot with all kinds of different settings in ART.
Maybe I had the same problem as you..?

Could be, I feel silly for not checking the subs right off the bat, in retrospect it was obvious.

 

[fzst]

When I try, this happens:

View attachment 486862

I assume it's because the Denon, despite separating out distances and levels, treats subs as one unit for calibration.

? well it did work then.. Once you separated the subs you cannot change their settings anymore you can only change the settings for one main LFE-group, the others "only" support the main group. You can choose how much each LFE-group supports the other LS though.

 

[fzst]

Could be, I feel silly for not checking the subs right off the bat, in retrospect it was obvious.

Indeed, now I feel silly too

 

[Oddball]

I’m also using a DENON!
You can separate the LFE group by dragging it with the mouse.
Also, there’s a small square box in the lower left corner — it’s easy to miss, but that’s the option to enable output below 20 Hz.


Even if the window seal was loose, that still seems quite possible.
Kind of legendary, honestly.

I’m using a DENON with a miniDSP Flex HTx to handle PEQ.
I’m not a big fan of full-band correction in Dirac.
The miniDSP is really convenient since I can switch between speaker and subwoofer presets all at once using the remote.
I also think the Denon/Marantz AVRs are quite user-friendly — the preset management, quick select buttons, and the ability to save and load settings via USB work great.

Seems like you are doing more than any of us can and will be looking forward to your posts as I did since you started contributing.

I have to say that mini DSP use experience has faded from my mind by now. Used Audy and REW filters instead ever since MultiEQ-X came aboard. But too much is never enough as they say...

 

[KenMasters]

? well it did work then.. Once you separated the subs you cannot change their settings anymore you can only change the settings for one main LFE-group, the others "only" support the main group. You can choose how much each LFE-group supports the other LS though.

It's separated out yes, but it's completely ignored - no BC, no ART - which not something I would think anyone would want.

 

[lessthanjoey]

It's separated out yes, but it's completely ignored - no BC, no ART - which not something I would think anyone would want.

It's not no ART, it supports other channels, eg it's specific to ART. You can only have one sub group be targeted for LFE with a target curve, etc, but the other groups should have configurable support for it and all other channel groups. Can you show your support options from another group after separating the subs? Think of this like your normal crossover but better!

 

[RenPa]

I had high expectations from Dirac and DLBC, both were a let down. I just resort to placement, treatments, and REW sweeps/PEQ correction..

My experience with DLBC is the more you take care of the perequisites the best are DLBC results. After placement, treatment then close the port af my speakers. Each changed improved DLBC results. Remains to decide : do I closed port of my 2 subs? I will lose 6dB at 20Hz. Will DLBC comensate for it? Worth to try? I don't know yet.
See Spectrogram of one DLBC is the flattest I got since the beginning. Of course it is not around 0ms between 150Hz and 20Hz but is very below 100ms.

 

[Oddball]

My experience with DLBC is the more you take care of the perequisites the best are DLBC results. After placement, treatment then close the port af my speakers. Each changed improved DLBC results. Remains to decide : do I closed port of my 2 subs? I will lose 6dB at 20Hz. Will DLBC comensate for it? Worth to try? I don't know yet.
See Spectrogram of one DLBC is the flattest I got since the beginning. Of course it is not around 0ms between 150Hz and 20Hz but is very below 100ms.
View attachment 486874

ART would likely eliminate half of the red in the graph though. It will still get hot if you sweep your subs at close to 100dB, but that's just honesty if you use them in that range.

 

[kawauso]

Seems like you are doing more than any of us can and will be looking forward to your posts as I did since you started contributing.

I have to say that mini DSP use experience has faded from my mind by now. Used Audy and REW filters instead ever since MultiEQ-X came aboard. But too much is never enough as they say...

Thank you! I also really enjoy reading your posts and seeing your likes, Oddball

It's separated out yes, but it's completely ignored - no BC, no ART - which not something I would think anyone would want.

For independent subwoofers, you need to click on the group area in the lower left and assign them manually.
Any subwoofer that isn’t assigned to a group won’t produce sound, so make sure every group includes a subwoofer.

I’m not sure if separating subwoofers is really necessary, but it can help if the subs have different performance levels or are placed in less-than-ideal positions.
However, if you just separate them but keep the same support range (for example, 20–150 Hz), the result will sound identical to having them in a single group.