Active is better sounding than passive

[IPunchCholla]

Active is objectively better, but you needn't spew audiophile nonsense to prove it. They have better dynamic capability per amp power (sometimes up to 6dB more for a given amp power output), the ability to tweak crossovers easily to have great pair matching between any two speakers, the ability to do more complex EQ (including additive), and phase can be corrected for with all-pass filters. Plus, the crossover filters aren't dependent on the electrical characteristics of the driver.

I agree. I also wish I knew how much better (via measurements) so I could decide if upgrading my 30 year old speakers would make a difference to my 50 year old ears. I have a pretty good sense of the differences I can hear and the ones I can't. I would like to know if the increased cost of extra amps, or active speakers, or making my own 7 channel system with DSP, would make an audible difference (for me), compared to my current speakers or upgraded passive speakers at the same SPL range.

 

[IPunchCholla]

1. I work in the audio industry, and my system is a high-end monitoring rig built and supported by a commercial audio company. This is not a normal consumer product, nor would I be in the market for one of those.

2. Again I would respectfully disagree, my speakers will not be obsolete in a decade, nor will they fall apart.

As an example for you every single speaker Meyer Sound makes is active. Their boxes are quite standardized, and will not be obsolete in several decades. I would also state that they are one of the most reliable brands I know of in the entire audio industry, passive or powered or active. These days with good engineering a well made product will not simply "break down fast due to vibrations." If this was the case powered speakers would not exist in the professional audio world. Instead they do and they perform exceedingly well in some adverse environments, such as being installed outside and being powered on 24 hours a day, through heat and rain; or getting bounced around in tour trucks and being driven hard for nightly shows.

Also for Meyer, since they make a great example, you just plug in an XLR and they work, there is no volume control or settings; for a PA speaker that is the most simple setup that I can think of; ie all the DSP and magic sauce is locked out from the user, and just about anyone can use one! In this sense just because there is a lot of technology going on under the hood, does not mean it is incredibly user friendly (no mucking with amps NL4 or NL8, breakouts, crossover etc) and quite reliable.
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Granted I think you and I are thinking of very different types of systems here, and might be in quite different worlds of audio.

If an audiophile doesn't have Panthers in their listening room, well, I am just not sure I want to know them!

 

[thewas]

About the supposed advantages of the direct coupling to the amp (woofers where it matters most usually don't have a ohmic resistance in the crossover in their passband) here is an article from Floyd Toole. http://diyaudioprojects.com/Technic...ping-Factor-and-Damn-Nonsense-Floyd-Toole.pdf

Also according to some very renown loudspeaker designers it is always better to use a high source impedance at mid and high frequencies, thus make the drivers as efficient as possible and pad them down in the crossover with resistance. https://purifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/220211_R05-Notchfilter.pdf

 

[asc]

View attachment 224921

Are you trolling or are you serious now?

i am serious ,, ask arthur, a professional audiophile

 

[DanielT]

i am serious ,, ask arthur, a professional audiophile

Aha, then I have to thank you for your insightful and clarifying answer.

I thought you were supposed to ask Alice, but I was wrong.

 

[Peluvius]

It is conclusive.....71.8% of the experts on this forum agree active is better than passive (don't know don't count)

 

[Thomas_A]

About the supposed advantages of the direct coupling to the amp (woofers where it matters most usually don't have a ohmic resistance in the crossover in their passband) here is an article from Floyd Toole. http://diyaudioprojects.com/Technic...ping-Factor-and-Damn-Nonsense-Floyd-Toole.pdf

Also according to some very renown loudspeaker designers it is always better to use a high source impedance at mid and high frequencies, thus make the drivers as efficient as possible and pad them down in the crossover with resistance. https://purifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/220211_R05-Notchfilter.pdf

The technical note is excellent.

 

[voodooless]

It is conclusive.....71.8% of the experts on this forum agree active is better than passive (don't know don't count)

 

[Thomas_A]

I suggest everyone to read the technical note from Purify above about impedance and driver interaction when it relates to distortion.

 

[Thomas_A]

So esentially, a car audio system: ideally, one channel pero sound-producing element.

The terms active vs. powered systems are a bit misleading. Ideally an active systems does something active, e g. by measuring the signal and does something with it in a feedback loop to the amp. Just adding a power amp to the driver is just a powered speaker. Higher impedance can lower distortion as shown in the technical note, and feed-back can increase SPL linearity.

 

[Vacceo]

The terms active vs. powered systems are a bit misleading. Ideally an active systems does something active, e g. by measuring the signal and does something with it in a feedback loop to the amp. Just adding a power amp to the driver is just a powered speaker. Higher impedance can lower distortion as shown in the technical note, and feed-back can increase SPL linearity.

When I did my car speakers I hooked every speaker and tweeter to an amp with DSP's. When adjusting it, I could could cut off the frequencies, gain and add slopes and EQ each point of sound. It was easy to set up and, logically, harder to polish and adjust with a bit precission.

I guess those principles are aplicable to a home environment too.

 

[Mnyb]

About the supposed advantages of the direct coupling to the amp (woofers where it matters most usually don't have a ohmic resistance in the crossover in their passband) here is an article from Floyd Toole. http://diyaudioprojects.com/Technic...ping-Factor-and-Damn-Nonsense-Floyd-Toole.pdf

Also according to some very renown loudspeaker designers it is always better to use a high source impedance at mid and high frequencies, thus make the drivers as efficient as possible and pad them down in the crossover with resistance. https://purifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/220211_R05-Notchfilter.pdf

That is interesting , I've seen article decades ago using current source amplifiers with practically infinite output impedance and someone showed that you could get more benign THD that way . Fr response deviation has then to be EQ'd and box alignment amended ofcourse ?

Maybe one can find some kind of optimal source impedance for a driver ? (this is beyond my understanding of the topic , so I'm guessing a bit ) .

That begs the question , are there currently any active speakers that tweaks the source impedance ? I think Audio Pro had their ACE-bass system in the 70's-80's

 

[asc]

When I did my car speakers I hooked every speaker and tweeter to an amp with DSP's. When adjusting it, I could could cut off the frequencies, gain and add slopes and EQ each point of sound. It was easy to set up and, logically, harder to polish and adjust with a bit precission.

I guess those principles are aplicable to a home environment too.

oh no,,detail is lost when you use dsp,,of course it is not audible when there is a sound from a street and or car engine

 

[Thomas_A]

That is interesting , I've seen article decades ago using current source amplifiers with practically infinite output impedance and someone showed that you could get more benign THD that way . Fr response deviation has then to be EQ'd and box alignment amended ofcourse ?

Maybe one can find some kind of optimal source impedance for a driver ? (this is beyond my understanding of the topic , so I'm guessing a bit ) .

That begs the question , are there currently any active speakers that tweaks the source impedance ? I think Audio Pro had their ACE-bass system in the 70's-80's

Yes, the purpose of ACE-bass was to manipulate amp output impedance for the driver but also feedback to the amp. Passive filters have the advantage to manipulate drive impedance and lower distortion.

 

[Mnyb]

Yes parr of ACE-bass was to manipulate amp output impedance for the driver but also feedback to the amp. Passive filters have the advantage to manipulate drive impedance and lower distortion.

And it raises the question of a combined active passive design with for example such notch circuit as described in the purifi paper and then active xover ?
Are there such a design ?

 

[Holmz]

Erins measurements on loudspeaker drivers regarding IMD , shows much worse results than ordinary harmonic distortion measurements, especially at higher volume. This is also happening with expensive drivers like Purifi. Its highly recommended to read .
...

LINK?

… And LS50 active is not accurate enough for my needs.

How do you define accuracy?

 

[Thomas_A]

LINK?




How do you define accuracy?

Primarily with respect to frequency reponse on and off-axis. Weighted for where our hearing is most sensitive, e.g. not equally important 10-20 kHz. Particularly I find that the energy in the 1-2.5 kHz region should never be lower than the 2.5-4 kHz region. Rather the opposite with 1-2 dB.

 

[Thomas_A]

And it raises the question of a combined active passive design with for example such notch circuit as described in the purifi paper and then active xover ?
Are there such a design ?

No idea.

 

[Tangband]

About the supposed advantages of the direct coupling to the amp (woofers where it matters most usually don't have a ohmic resistance in the crossover in their passband) here is an article from Floyd Toole. http://diyaudioprojects.com/Technic...ping-Factor-and-Damn-Nonsense-Floyd-Toole.pdf

Also according to some very renown loudspeaker designers it is always better to use a high source impedance at mid and high frequencies, thus make the drivers as efficient as possible and pad them down in the crossover with resistance. https://purifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/220211_R05-Notchfilter.pdf

Yes - active with direct coupling has its biggest advantage in the bass frequencies , in the EMF area.
Driving the different drivers in an active speaker with different output impedances from the amplifiers can be a nice way to optimise the speaker .

Elliot has written a lot of this to, not only Toole . Linkwitz has also written about this .

One can simply test this with a 4 Ohm resistor in series with the tweeter and compensate the tweeter amplifier with more gain .

My own experience of this trick with the Hybrid dsp speaker and the jbl 530 rebuild to active is mixed . In one of the speaker I couldnt hear a differens at all with a resistor in series with the tweeter, and on the other one there was a clear worsening of the sound with the resistor .

The measurement regarding distortion showed no difference at all.

So when optimise a active dsp DIY speaker one can test this . Sometimes the sound can be better , sometimes not .

 

[Holmz]

Primarily with respect to frequency reponse on and off-axis.
…

Let’s pretend the drivers are linear in terms of frequency response.
Then what you are describing is mostly the box diffraction.

You have nothing listed on distortion and compression, so it is all just frequency response and radiation pattern?