Active is better sounding than passive

[Vacceo]

When the modules are proprietary in a box, their longevity is compromised. I have zero trust in -for example- NAD supporting MDC modules for their integrated amplifiers for 10 years. And the track record shows it. I'd rather have some separate box deal with the dynamic streaming ecosystem, spitting out the bits to a future-proof core system via Toslink or Coax or HDMI.

Anything that has advanced semiconductors in it will become obsolete within just a few years these days. And companies can't keep supporting obsolete designs. That is why I believe in separation of duties. I don't like to pay thousands for stuff that I think will be obsolete in a few years. That's my issues with advanced car or motorcycle electronics too. I have a 25 year old Porsche 356 replica with a Toyota engine that doesn't have a single element of advanced electronics in it as my second (and fun) car. It'll keep being drivable in 25 years (I'll be dead :-D). I have a BMW R1100S motorcycle since 1999 that only has ABS - no advanced traction control. I keep them because they simply work. I have had 3 other cars and 4 other motorcycles in the meantime, loaded with electronics, that became ridiculously expensive to maintain at some point in time.

For vendors it is awesome if they can force customers into an expensive regular upgrade cycle, we know that. It's just not a cycle I want to always participate in, but in some ways it is inevitable these days.

That's the reason behind "the box". Keep it just for connectors and codecs/room EQ... The multichannel for a system like that could simply work through an Ethernet switch.

 

[Dion_Sinewave]

Dante, Madi, and AVB all work quite well.

I started to see Dante and AVB being integrated into speakers.

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In Pro-Audio Dante has the widest acceptability, and it is fairly inexpensive to get into. Granted the chip-shortage meant no Dante chips for over a year, and now that they are being produced again, they are backlogged for almost another year. Not a fun product to be dependent upon at the moment!

I gather that AVB may be used more widely in other industries, and that it has some advantages over Dante for transmission of audio (better stability is what I heard, which is important). However this is not yet widely used in the audio industry; that being said the audio industry does not produce a lot of products comparatively to say the auto industry, so if other industries fully embrace AVB, audio may not have much choice.

I use Dante and find it to be excellent

 

[NiagaraPete]

Indeed - I am a huge believer in integrated DAC-Amp-Speaker designs.

But then the trend these days is to also integrate the streaming apps... Convenient as it is, I am not sure that's something I buy into... that means my return-on-investment in a system may be impacted by market disruptions (music service going bust etc), changes in the APIs music services offer for integration, CPU obsolescence when it comes to supporting new needs etc. So my ideal active speaker would be something like the KEF LS60 or LS50W but without the built-in streaming support (or phono input).

Yeah, that’s not good. It locks you into BIG tech (google, Apple, etc). Streaming is still too big of a question.

 

[pablolie]

... Streaming is still too big of a question.

Indeed, it's a job for a media PC. It's not something I want included in the *audio* chain, and pay for dearly (you know they charge you for a development effort they want to amortize within 2-3 years at most). I like my audio system to connect to the world via Toslink or Coax or HDMI, and *not* via built-in proprietary APIs that may be obsolete anytime. Leave that job to a mainstream computing device. The bits are just as good.

 

[Matthias McCready]

I use Dante and find it to be excellent

I have never had issues with Dante either, when using it as recommended it has been rock solid (ie not on a shared network).

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I know a Meyer Sound demo I was at when I talked to one of their systems guys, that he had a strong opinion in favor of AVB (this is what Meyer uses as a digital protocol).

Not sure whether those Dante problems exist, or are of actual concern in the real world, or if he was just hitting a sales point; he did sound like he knew what he was talking about, but I am a novice when it comes to networking, I have a lot to learn.

 

[NiagaraPete]

Indeed, it's a job for a media PC. It's not something I want included in the *audio* chain, and pay for dearly (you know they charge you for a development effort they want to amortize within 2-3 years at most). I like my audio system to connect to the world via Toslink or Coax or HDMI, and *not* via built-in proprietary APIs that may be obsolete anytime. Leave that job to a mainstream computing device. The bits are just as good.

Sort of why I went the RPI. I can control it’s future to an extent.

 

[Matthias McCready]

Indeed, it's a job for a media PC. It's not something I want included in the *audio* chain, and pay for dearly (you know they charge you for a development effort they want to amortize within 2-3 years at most). I like my audio system to connect to the world via Toslink or Coax or HDMI, and *not* via built-in proprietary APIs that may be obsolete anytime. Leave that job to a mainstream computing device. The bits are just as good.

For critical listening I have a computer, one for my listening space and another DAW computer for my mix space.

Each of these has 4TB hard drive with my music on them, I add new albums every month. Band Camp has made this a lot easier. I can often get a physical CD which stays wrapped, which is a 5th backup (if the album gets pulled from band camp, and if all 4 Hard drives died) and get an instant download, to put in the computer.

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For non-critical listening (the rest of the speakers in the house) I have all of my music on my phone, and just use bluetooth.

All utilizing Foobar 2000, works well enough with minimal fuss.

 

[NiagaraPete]

For critical listening I have a computer, one for my listening space and another DAW computer for my mix space.

Each of these has 4TB hard drive with my music on them, I add new albums every month. Band Camp has made this a lot easier. I can often get a physical CD which stays wrapped, which is a 5th backup (if the album gets pulled from band camp, and if all 4 Hard drives died) and get an instant download, to put in the computer.

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For non-critical listening (the rest of the speakers in the house) I have all of my music on my phone, and just use bluetooth.

All utilizing Foobar 2000, works well enough with minimal fuss.

I use Bandcamp as well, my music taste tends to direct to odd. I have a 21.75TB NAS that is hard cabled to every room in the house. Funny I hardly ever use it now, streaming and new music exploration via Apple Music has me way to happy.

 

[pablolie]

For critical listening I have a computer, one for my listening space and another DAW computer for my mix space.

Each of these has 4TB hard drive with my music on them, I add new albums every month. Band Camp has made this a lot easier. I can often get a physical CD which stays wrapped, which is a 5th backup (if the album gets pulled from band camp, and if all 4 Hard drives died) and get an instant download, to put in the computer.

---

For non-critical listening (the rest of the speakers in the house) I have all of my music on my phone, and just use bluetooth.

All utilizing Foobar 2000, works well enough with minimal fuss.

Interesting. I buy albums on Bandcamp, but I don't use it as a streaming service.

I also have a 4TB drive with about 1TB of music on it.

My listening is mixed between my resident music collection (30+ years of buying albums) and simply Spotify, but I see myself creating more and more playlists on the latter for convenience and reusability on every device.

I still make sure to buy my fav artists' albums to support them.

 

[Tangband]

I really do not know in any detail how far electronics have progressed in 30 years however the basic principle that you amplify after the crossover delivered a host of design benefits back then that translated into relevant and measurable acoustic outcomes. If you see speakers as a machine (as they are), I don't see much more to debate? A well designed active will always beat a well designed passive because the crossover in a passive design is post amplification. What am I missing?

Exactly. This is true , in a passive system you also loose power because you can only attenuate the music signal and its done after the amplifier. One such thing is the baffle step correction , in a passive crossover all you can do is to attenuate the signal to do the correction, and you will loose about 4-6 dB amplifier power.

In a loudspeaker with full baffle step correction made for freestanding location , as an example , with 6 dB attenuation you might need 200 watts in a passive setup, but in an active setup theres only 50 watts needed for the same spl.

Read more here :

Double amplifier power does not double the volume - Geoff the Grey Geek

This article logically shows the relationship between amplifier power, SPL and loudness. It includes a level difference exercise and a gain calculator.

geoffthegreygeek.com

 

[Tangband]

Its a little bit late in this thread but I'd like to take issue with the statement that anything that an active crossover filter function can be duplicated with passives. First though I will agree with it. One can sit at a desk in front of a computer and go out in the lab and duplicate that active filter function to the nth degree of precision. But that isn't the end of it unless you are making just one speaker or a pair of speakers. If this is a design for production, then a parts list and schematic diagram will be tossed over the walls into marketing, purchasing, and manufacturing. (perhaps multiple iterations of this loop.) Several months later, finished units roll off the assembly line. You test many random samples in the lab. The average of all those measured responses, if marketing hasn't worked too hard on reducing the cost, likely matches the optimized response of your finished design. The trouble is each one of those numerous passive components you specified had a tolerance and a cost, as did the drivers themselves. The difference between an individual speaker's response and that average may well be audible.

On the production line for active speakers, it would be a simple matter for someone with the right skill set to implement a semi-automatic measure and adjust step to optimize each speaker's response.

So if you are not a DIYer and you want high end sound, I would say your best bet is with an active solution. But don't gamble - do the due diligence.

Its true with an active dsp crossover you dont have to bother with the +-10 percent deviation thats in passive crossover components on the production line. You still have the deviations of the driveunits themself to deal with , but this can be easily corrected in a dsp crossover.

 

[Waxx]

I know active have advantages over passive, but passive still has it's place.

Active is easier to implement right, and often also cheaper with modern chipamps that are getting very high quality but still remain relative cheap. DSP's and their adc/dac are also getting on a level that it does not matter anymore compared to analog. The tech to get there is already a few decades availeble but was very expensive untill recently. That is very good and altough i like a bit of tube or class A colour, i like that technical almost perfect systems are getting cheap enough to be accessible by the masses. But with passive you can also get there, it's just in many cases way to complex and expensive due the the massive amount of parts you need in that crossover. And for high power it get's even more ridiculous in cost and size. That is the main reason why pro audio high power systems is almost exclusive dsp based since dsp exist (even in the time it was still relative crappy).

But the big problem with digital is that there is no standardisation in protocols and many protocols are closed propriate to a brand or need an expensive licence. There are to many and they keep chaning. The same with the needed soft and hardware parts, they are changing to fast to keep a product working right for a reasonable time and repair parts (for the hardware) like the semiconductors are or unobtaineble or very hard and expensive to get. Software is also getting obsolete very fast and need constant upgrading.

An other problem is the complexity of a digital system, to many boxes and cables are needed for the average music lover. They just want a source, an integrated amp and a set of speakers, with the less cables needed, the better. And they want it to work for decades. Passive can do that, active not yet (or at lest did not proof itself on this).

I know quiet a few who had higher end dsp based systems that broke down and were unrepairable. Or were older devices don't work with newer devices anymore, so they need to replace the whole setup. Plate amps are probally the worst for that, they almost all die after a decade and are very hard to replace. Most of those with broken dsp based systems moved back to passive because it's more reliable and easy to repair for a local tech and it's not that passive by definition sounds bad (see also the measurements on this site of some). And for the same reasons old speakers are still very popular. The second hand market of speakers is big, and prices are often very high for the better stuff today.

So a good active system should be simple to use and install and repair, and reliable enough to last decades, before it will be viable for the masses i think. If you spend a couple of grands (for most people a lot of money), they need to know it's worth it. And keep electronics out of the speaker cabinets, so when they break down they are easely replaced, without compromising the speakers itself.

And then i'm not talking over personal preference yet. I like oldskool analog systems with colouring amplification and low order crossovers that are well build. It's not for everybody, i know. It's not neutral and "hifi" in the definition of most on this site, but it's hifi to my ears and brings me joy. But as a nerd and diy guy who like a challenge, i'm also busy with clean neutral active speakers and dsp systems. No own builds yet, but they will be build somewhere in the near future as it's interesting to see and try my own id's on it.

 

[asc]

active make the detail gone

 

[Waxx]

Its true with an active dsp crossover you dont have to bother with the +-10 percent deviation thats in passive crossover components on the production line. You still have the deviations of the driveunits themself to deal with , but this can be easily corrected in a dsp crossover.

You also got 1% deviation parts, but those are not advertised on the typical "audiophile" shops, they are industrial parts but perfect viable for crossover use when used right. And 1% is so little it won't matter anymore, even 5% deviation is not really an issue.

 

[Tangband]

I know active have advantages over passive, but passive still has it's place.

Active is easier to implement right, and often also cheaper with modern chipamps that are getting very high quality but still remain relative cheap. DSP's and their adc/dac are also getting on a level that it does not matter anymore compared to analog. The tech to get there is already a few decades availeble but was very expensive untill recently. That is very good and altough i like a bit of tube or class A colour, i like that technical almost perfect systems are getting cheap enough to be accessible by the masses. But with passive you can also get there, it's just in many cases way to complex and expensive due the the massive amount of parts you need in that crossover. And for high power it get's even more ridiculous in cost and size. That is the main reason why pro audio high power systems is almost exclusive dsp based since dsp exist (even in the time it was still relative crappy).

But the big problem with digital is that there is no standardisation in protocols and many protocols are closed propriate to a brand or need an expensive licence. There are to many and they keep chaning. The same with the needed soft and hardware parts, they are changing to fast to keep a product working right for a reasonable time and repair parts (for the hardware) like the semiconductors are or unobtaineble or very hard and expensive to get. Software is also getting obsolete very fast and need constant upgrading.

An other problem is the complexity of a digital system, to many boxes and cables are needed for the average music lover. They just want a source, an integrated amp and a set of speakers, with the less cables needed, the better. And they want it to work for decades. Passive can do that, active not yet (or at lest did not proof itself on this).

I know quiet a few who had higher end dsp based systems that broke down and were unrepairable. Or were older devices don't work with newer devices anymore, so they need to replace the whole setup. Plate amps are probally the worst for that, they almost all die after a decade and are very hard to replace. Most of them moved back to passive because it's more reliable and easy to repair for a local tech and it's not that passive by definition sounds bad (see also the measurements on this site of some). And for the same reasons old speakers are still very popular. The second hand market of speakers is big, and prices are often very high for the better stuff today.

So a good active system should be simple to use and install and repair, and reliable enough to last decades, before it will be viable for the masses i think. If you spend a couple of grands (for most people a lot of money), they need to know it's worth it. And keep electronics out of the speaker cabinets, so when they break down they are easely replaced, without compromising the speakers itself.

And then i'm not talking over personal preference yet. I like oldskool analog systems with colouring amplification and low order crossovers that are well build. It's not for everybody, i know. It's not neutral and "hifi" in the definition of most on this site, but it's hifi to my ears and brings me joy. But as a nerd and diy guy who like a challenge, i'm also busy with clean neutral active speakers and dsp systems. No own builds yet, but they will be build somewhere in the near future as it's interesting to see and try my own id's on it.

With a dsp crossover in an active DIY dsp setup - you can make the sound as colored or enjoyable to the ear as you want . One can also use class D for bass and midrange and a valve or class A amplifier for the tweeter, if you want.

I agree that having the streamer inside the active loudspeaker might get into usability troubles after 5 years. As for components , in cars the electronics can last more than 12 years in a very hostile environment - If its a quality car.
Many cheap plateamps uses bad components and can break, but this is true with any amplifier.

 

[Thomas_A]

EQ can be used both with passive ad active speakers, so any fractions of dB that could deviate, is easy to correct.

 

[Waxx]

With a dsp crossover in a DIY dsp setup - you can make the sound as colored or enjoyable to the ear as you want .

No you can't, good harmonic distortion is something digital can not make yet. Many tried, i listened to a lot of them, but it's not right compared to the old way (tubes or class A). I would love to have it cheaper than now, but it's not there yet...

Colouring the frequency response you can off course. And that is something i will use in my dsp based projects, but to add harmonic distortion, you still need an analog stage. But most of you don't want that harmonic distortion, so ...

 

[Tangband]

No you can't, good harmonic distortion is something digital can not make yet. Many tried, i listened to a lot of them, but it's not right compared to the old way (tubes or class A). I would love to have it cheaper than now, but it's not there yet...

Colouring the frequency response you can off course. And that is something i will use in my dsp based projects, but to add harmonic distortion, you still need an analog stage. But most of you don't want that harmonic distortion, so ...

You can try with an analog compression box, or try line transformers before the amplifiers in an active setup, after the dsp crossover. Theres a lot of stuff one can use to make the sound ”friendlier” to the ears.

 

[Waxx]

You can try with an analog compression box, or try line transformers before the amplifiers in an active setup, after the dsp crossover. Theres a lot of stuff one can use to make the sound ”friendlier” to the ears.

You can do it with a simple circuit with a Jfet amplification stage also. Nelson Pass did design a circuit (the H2 Harmonic Generator) like that for diyaudio that became a kit (board and 2 jfets cost 8$ on their site). Total cost of board is about 20€ or even less in components, and i'm sure that diyaudio take their commision on it, so i can be done even cheaper... Put that on the output of your dsp channels in unity gain config or as output amp. Or you can even use it in parrallel with a balance pot between straight and the H2 circuit to dial in the ammount of colour you want.

So yes, you can do it cheap these days, no super expensive amp needed. But you can't do it digital, as it sound fake and too controlled.

 

[JiiPee]

You can do it with a simple circuit with a Jfet amplification stage also. Nelson Pass did design a circuit (the H2 Harmonic Generator) like that for diyaudio that became a kit (board and 2 jfets cost 8$ on their site). Total cost of board is about 20€ or even less in components, and i'm sure that diyaudio take their commision on it, so i can be done even cheaper... Put that on the output of your dsp channels in unity gain config or as output amp. Or you can even use it in parrallel with a balance pot between straight and the H2 circuit to dial in the ammount of colour you want.

So yes, you can do it cheap these days, no super expensive amp needed. But you can't do it digital, as it sound fake and too controlled.

I do not see a problem here. At the end of the playback chain You need analog power amplification anyway as the speaker drivers need analog input signals. Just install Your cheap "distortion amplifiers" before class D power amplification, and there You have it.