Active is best according to ATC

[Purité Audio]

http://atcforums.co.uk/pdf/ATC CORP BROCHURE.pdf

Scroll to near the end, ATC believe active is best,despite making passive versions of some models.
Keith

 

[amirm]

No question. We are forced into so many passive designs due to majority of audiophile customers wanting to have control of which amp they use.

Imagine someone putting a volume control on the speaker terminals versus what we use now, i.e. in the pre-amp. No one in their right mind would want the massive high-power resistors that it would take to reduce the volume from speaker output. Yet, when it comes to the crossover, we are forcing the designers to build high-power filters inside the speaker whose job is not that much different than using volume control there.

 

[Cosmik]

No question. We are forced into so many passive designs due to majority of audiophile customers wanting to have control of which amp they use.

Imagine someone putting a volume control on the speaker terminals versus what we use now, i.e. in the pre-amp. No one in their right mind would want the massive high-power resistors that it would take to reduce the volume from speaker output. Yet, when it comes to the crossover, we are forcing the designers to build high-power filters inside the speaker whose job is not that much different than using volume control there.

A very good point.

 

[NorthSky]

Active speakers; are they remote controllable...the volume level?

 

[amirm]

Active speakers; are they remote controllable...the volume level?

No, you usually hook up a pre-amp/processor and use its volume control.

 

[NorthSky]

Meridian I think have some with their own volume remote control?
And some subs too have their own remote volume, phase, EQ controllable from the comfort of your chair.

 

[amirm]

Meridian speakers have DSP in them so yes, volume can be controlled using that.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Active speakers; are they remote controllable...the volume level?

That would be more than just an active speaker. That would be a speaker with a DAC/pre built in as well. I own a pair that does exactly that, but it's an uncommon design because most actives are built for studio use, where volume control comes from the mixing board.

Tim

 

[March Audio]

No question. We are forced into so many passive designs due to majority of audiophile customers wanting to have control of which amp they use.

Imagine someone putting a volume control on the speaker terminals versus what we use now, i.e. in the pre-amp. No one in their right mind would want the massive high-power resistors that it would take to reduce the volume from speaker output. Yet, when it comes to the crossover, we are forcing the designers to build high-power filters inside the speaker whose job is not that much different than using volume control there.

Indeed. Look to the left at the crossover I had to design for that 3 way! After evaluating that potential I moved to active DSP. Minidsp minisharc does the xo and using a Twisted pear DAC with ncore amps. Its sounds cleaner, more dynamic and more neutral. I wont be buying passives again.

 

[Sal1950]

No question. We are forced into so many passive designs due to majority of audiophile customers wanting to have control of which amp they use.

Indeed the change will be a very hard row to hoe. Just today I was answering a request for a amp and maybe DAC recommendation at fixed budget pricing from a member at CA. Another member there interceded insisting on adding interconnects and speaker cables into the discussion because their consideration and cost would be a significant factor.
Just about everyone in the industry except the active manufacturers will drag their heals on the issue including not only the audiophiles but the support media and luxury good manufacturers.
Interesting times ahead.

 

[Cosmik]

So with this being an audio science forum and all, should passive speakers even be considered as a suitable topic for discussion?

One thing that always annoys me a bit, is when someone says "Both active and passive speakers are capable of great performance when designed well." or similar. The impression given is that the two systems are more-or-less equivalent and that maybe passive speakers have more 'refinement', with active being more 'pro'.

The conventional passive speaker does have the psychological advantage of divorcing the acoustic box from the electronics, so it feels as though it is a musical instrument whose sound can be influenced by craftspeople and artisans. The speaker box with a heatsink on the back is a little less compelling.

 

[Thomas savage]

Well you have the customer side of things but also its how the industry works. Lots of little audiophile companies making one part of your system. It's by in large a fairly small group and they all protect their market but also they are not setup to build speakers with amps in ( a totally different business model as is professional vs audiophile home market) likewise the amp guys have little to offer as speaker designers as well as suffering similarly in regard to factory setup etc. So both would need serious investment to make the active a reality and for what profit? What's their motivation?

It's funny as most if not all speaker companies market their product using photos with no cables, amps etc on show but they shy away from making that a reality in customers homes.

For me the cross over speaker would have to look ostentatious to provide that audiophile 'look at by system feel' but also have the simplicity of the active/all in one design to bring that look you get in the promotional material and Actually look like some speaker design happened ie not just drivers in a shoe box.

What your left with is pro audio companies knocking out speakers for audiophiles in a market they have no expertise in, ala JBL. Brand wise they never get their shit together for the different market but also fail in other ways.

There just is not the market there to inspire the huge change in approach and huge investment it would take for these companies to establish a 'audiophile active' . TAD could do it, but I can't think of another company that has true high end credibility along with all the expertise and experience needed to pull of the trick.

The technical advantage means little at the moment but with the advent of advanced DSP we could see the active taking back market share.. We are ten years away from that imo.

i would love a pair of active vivids with advanced DSP and automatic room correction but few seem to think it would make them sound better.. No longer, pure

 

[Purité Audio]

It would be straightforward to 'activate' your vivid, you need an amp per driver of course and a Mini DSP processor £200 and a microphone, implement the crossovers on your PC you can listen to them in real time, when you are happy download to the MiniDSP processor, then use the other half of the software to EQ your room.
Keith

 

[Thomas savage]

What would be great is if we could house a very well regarded 'audiophile' system with passive speakers in a room along with a pair of kii three so basically a £10 k shoot out between the two...

What wins? That would really drive home the advantage of the active/all in one if it did indeed sound better.

You would genuinely change minds with that imo. If it were me that's what I would do, I would also drag it round to every show going so people could decide for themselves. All you need is a front end that is software programmable so you can give the sound that SET feel or what ever audiophiles like.

When they moan it sounds clinical you click the mouse or touch the screen on your iPad and suddenly they think they are listening to a £30k Audio research Pre amp you could even put that pre amp in a rack to fool folk..

That's if this is all possible...

It would be a revolution ...

 

[Thomas savage]

It would be straightforward to 'activate' your vivid, you need an amp per driver of course and a Mini DSP processor £200 and a microphone, implement the crossovers on your PC you can listen to them in real time, when you are happy download to the MiniDSP processor, then use the other half of the software to EQ your room.
Keith

yea, I think dic tried that but thinks it did not sound as rewarding as the passive network...

Who wants half a tone of kit all stacked up? Not me, never did.

Not buying half a ton of amps though and buggering about endlessly just to go active. Much simpler the way it's set up now.

However if a factory mod was available that genuinely sounded better and was fully programmable ( automatically too) just put a few mic about and auto calibration then yes I would go with that .

Tidal subscription and two speakers , only wires are for power. Job done.. Heavenly! Some wireless subs put about the room that are totally automatic in terms of integration and can drive a odd shaped room all on the fly through DSP and give ideal response .. That's what's needed, not crap that you need to spend ten years studying to work out how to set it up. Even now no one on here can agree how to setup subs and that's just in a regular room!

Mic on every sub and on speaker and in MLS.. Software sorts it all out.

 

[Purité Audio]

What would be great is if we could house a very well regarded 'audiophile' system with passive speakers in a room along with a pair of kii three so basically a £10 k shoot out between the two...

What wins? That would really drive home the advantage of the active/all in one if it did indeed sound better.

You would genuinely change minds with that imo. If it were me that's what I would do, I would also drag it round to every show going so people could decide for themselves. All you need is a front end that is software programmable so you can give the sound that SET feel or what ever audiophiles like.

When they moan it sounds clinical you click the mouse or touch the screen on your iPad and suddenly they think they are listening to a £30k Audio research Pre amp you could even put that pre amp in a rack to fool folk..

That's if this is all possible...

It would be a revolution ...

We have created that shootout many times,for example comparing a customers, Strads / Krell /Theta with the Grimm LS1 he purchased the Grimms.
Another chap had Wilson Sophia's can't remember the amps,but also purchased the Grimm speakers.
The Kiis have 19 'contour' options so that you can tailor the sound to your taste , I don't think Bruno is going to deliberately add distortion options though.
Keith

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

If I were the marketing director at a big pro audio company like JBL, wanting to enter the consumer market with actives, I'd ignore audiophiles altogether. That's nearly impenetrable market filled with fantasy and psychological roadblocks to innovation, and they're almost exclusively old men. The fuse is short on that market; let the voodoo merchants have them for what little time they have left. I would reach for the generations of adults with no home hifi at all; the ones who stream MP3s from their phones to their little bluetooth speakers. They get better sound in their cars and from their headphones than they do at home, though they may not have noticed. I think selling them on quality sound in-home would be easier than prying audiophiles away from their illusions. But to get the bluetooth generations, the solution will have to be unobtrusive - small, 2.1, as wireless as possible, and fully integrated - DAC, DSP, pre, amplification, wireless receivers and speakers all in 3 small boxes and a microphone you put away and forget about once the system calibrates itself. And it has to have an inexpensive entry level. That doesn't mean there can't be an upgrade path, and I think once they experience good audio, for music and TV (critical), upgrading them will be pretty easy. But first you have to get quality stereo back in the home. That's the first hurdle to create a new mass market for quality audio, and $10k speakers, hell, even $2k speakers, are not going to open that door. Get it all in under a grand and take it from there.

Tim

 

[Cosmik]

If I were the marketing director at a big pro audio company like JBL, wanting to enter the consumer market with actives, I'd ignore audiophiles altogether. That's nearly impenetrable market filled with fantasy and psychological roadblocks to innovation, and they're almost exclusively old men. The fuse is short on that market; let the voodoo merchants have them for what little time they have left. I would reach for the generations of adults with no home hifi at all; the ones who stream MP3s from their phones to their little bluetooth speakers. They get better sound in their cars and from their headphones than they do at home, though they may not have noticed. I think selling them on quality sound in-home would be easier than prying audiophiles away from their illusions. But to get the bluetooth generations, the solution will have to be unobtrusive - small, 2.1, as wireless as possible, and fully integrated - DAC, DSP, pre, amplification, wireless receivers and speakers all in 3 small boxes and a microphone you put away and forget about once the system calibrates itself. And it has to have an inexpensive entry level. That doesn't mean there can't be an upgrade path, and I think once they experience good audio, for music and TV (critical), upgrading them will be pretty easy. But first you have to get quality stereo back in the home. That's the first hurdle to create a new mass market for quality audio, and $10k speakers, hell, even $2k speakers, are not going to open that door. Get it all in under a grand and take it from there.

Tim

A subject for another thread, perhaps, but why is it that our generation 'get' (or 'got') the idea of hi fi while this generation couldn't care less about it? Is it because their music's rubbish?

 

[Thomas savage]

If I were the marketing director at a big pro audio company like JBL, wanting to enter the consumer market with actives, I'd ignore audiophiles altogether. That's nearly impenetrable market filled with fantasy and psychological roadblocks to innovation, and they're almost exclusively old men. The fuse is short on that market; let the voodoo merchants have them for what little time they have left. I would reach for the generations of adults with no home hifi at all; the ones who stream MP3s from their phones to their little bluetooth speakers. They get better sound in their cars and from their headphones than they do at home, though they may not have noticed. I think selling them on quality sound in-home would be easier than prying audiophiles away from their illusions. But to get the bluetooth generations, the solution will have to be unobtrusive - small, 2.1, as wireless as possible, and fully integrated - DAC, DSP, pre, amplification, wireless receivers and speakers all in 3 small boxes and a microphone you put away and forget about once the system calibrates itself. And it has to have an inexpensive entry level. That doesn't mean there can't be an upgrade path, and I think once they experience good audio, for music and TV (critical), upgrading them will be pretty easy. But first you have to get quality stereo back in the home. That's the first hurdle to create a new mass market for quality audio, and $10k speakers, hell, even $2k speakers, are not going to open that door. Get it all in under a grand and take it from there.

Tim

I use a Bluetooth JBL speaker for work... I think if they did a pair of speakers for the home market like you say AND marketed them properly they would have a winner.

However I think the new Andrew Jones line at Elac would be better placed in the market for that type of project. Just need to put the electronics inside what is already a Well respected budget line of speakers.

 

[Thomas savage]

A subject for another thread, perhaps, but why is it that our generation 'get' (or 'got') the idea of hi fi while this generation couldn't care less about it? Is it because their music's rubbish?

No it's simply because music went portable and people use music differently now. Why constrict yourself by spending all your money on a static system?

It used to be a right of passage for a man too, buy a house, buy a car then show off luxuries like hifi to all those neighbors who come round for fondue parties.