Active Designs & Their Favorability

[Ron Texas]

Well, evidently you don't. Which surprises me a little, after your confident assertion that "it's a difficult problem to solve". Usually such pronouncements are based on expert knowledge of the extent, nature and cause of such difficulties. How do you know it's not an easy problem to solve? I guess you don't either, which makes your comment ... what, exactly?

If you think I am wrong go solve the problem yourself. Your previous unkind comments lay it at the feet of shoddy design. There are price points, and if it was easy the problem it would be solved already. Perhaps it's time to stop swinging your purse as you walk down the aisles of the china shop, condemning everyone in your path.

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

Noise floor, reflections, age related hearing loss, etc will have significant impact on whether you hear the self generated noise. No one is wrong when they say they can or can't hear it.

 

[matt3421]

I bought the Kali LP-6 as desktop speakers and their hiss was bad enough to convince me to buy the Neumann KH 80. no hiss whatsoever at 1m

 

[Inner Space]

[QUOTE="Ron Texas, post: 435987, member: 2306"Perhaps it's time to stop swinging your purse as you walk down the aisles of the china shop, condemning everyone in your path.[/QUOTE]

That's a deeply weird metaphor. I'm condemning no one, except hissing monitors, and people with grand pronouncements but nothing to back them up.

 

[Old Listener]

Honestly can't figure out why people get so worked up about hiss. If the speakers reduced gain when music isn't playing then the hiss would be gone but the impact on sound quality would be exactly nothing.
...
Hyperfocusing on this one thing is ignoring many other factors.

Hiss-teria!

 

[Old Listener]

Perhaps it's time to stop swinging your purse as you walk down the aisles of the china shop, condemning everyone in your path.

Bulls*** in a china shop?

 

[Vintage57]

8341A at <3ft

8030C at 10+ ft

In my setup with 5-7 ft distance, it's low enough to not bother me during silence and inaudible with any content. The 8030C is pushing it a little for desktop use though.

I haven’t read all the posts yet, however this my experience.

My MEYER HD-1‘S had an audible hiss from 2.5 meters, drove me nuts.
The ATC’s never hissed even with 5 of them on in HT system.
My Neumann’s, and I have now 2 pairs, don’t hiss, dead quiet, without the logo lit you would not they were on.
The Vanatoo Zero’s on my desk don’t hiss either.

 

[Zvu]

You're very quick to shout down rational explanations for observed experience, but for some reason alternate hypotheses are not on offer....

I had problem with original 2x4 as well but not because of low voltage output since AK4396 chip in configuration i used with nanodigi 2x8 also had low output voltage. If you wanted to discuss about hypothetical reasons that can make one device sound different to another i'll not waste my time on that. If you open a thread about problems minidsp 2x4 has, i will be happy to participate and tell you what were problems i encountered with it. But, my critique is mainly directed to obligatory AD conversion (lacking digital input that works) and few more things.

...If you listen in the same slapdash manner you react to written text, then clearly it is very possible for you to "experience" (nice wiggle word!) audible differences between two amplifiers or DACs.

Slapdash I had to lookup that one. Yes, i can be like that (obviously) but hopefully not all the time. "experienced " was not ment to be a wiggle word. I couldn't possibly know how will you comprehend what i write and in what manner. If you like "audible differences" more then ok, we'll use that.

...
Your lack of answer to the direct question “What does "better" even mean here?” is also illuminating....

I believed this was rhetorical question since i thought it was obvious that the number of possible scenarios for that outcome one can only imagine. Amplifier was example, though i guess i could have used the term electronics since we can't know for sure the source of problems. For example, if we were to use electronics from JBL LSR305 and install it in Neumann KH120 dialing in everything it takes to get a good measured acoustical performance, the sound coming from KH120 would exibit the same problems, namely hissing, so in that regard the electronics in 305 is limiting factor - or Neumann electronics could be called better. I've explained in later post that i used it as an (bad)example and that i wouldn't expect from Neumann to use a faulty amplifier/DSP/DAC in their active loudspeakers unlike some other brands.

...
Note that I never wrote that I have never heard differences in amps. (I actually haven't ever heard a non-noise related audible difference in DACs, though I value my time too much to explore standalone DACs in any detail.) Anyone who has been in this hobby for a while has encountered encountered badly made boutique amps with poorly matched channels, amplifiers with output impedance that corrupts the loudspeaker's frequency response, noisy amps (circuitry or external noise such as transformer hum or loud fans), ground loops, and so on. However, as I wrote above amps integrated into a closed system "sufficient headroom to meet the SPL targets, while being quiet, reliable, and energy efficient" are all just amps. If you're a careful and deliberate listener, you will reach the same conclusion. I left off "flat frequency response" because in the context of a closed system, the amplifier subassembly's frequency response is irrelevant.

Furthermore, citing Mikey effing Fremer as he commits to print the "experts suck" viewpoint I outlined above is not going to win you style points with the audience here. I’m much more interested in the late Mr. Clark’s interpretation of events than Mikey’s. Yet you chose not to provide a serious viewpoint. Why?

Glad to see you've experienced audible differences in amplifiers. I cited the link where you could read about subjective perceived differences in amplifier sound on the same pair of loudspeakers and electronics. Why does it matter if Michael Fremer and/or John Atkinson (i think both of them did, but i'm not sure, JA talked about it in one interview) organized it if David Clark supervised it and couldn't find a flaw in the experimental methods ? Does that make the test non valid ? Oh, and i don't do this for points of any sort. I write when i have time (mostly weekends).

 

[aac]

If you think I am wrong go solve the problem yourself. Your previous unkind comments lay it at the feet of shoddy design. There are price points, and if it was easy the problem it would be solved already. Perhaps it's time to stop swinging your purse as you walk down the aisles of the china shop, condemning everyone in your path.

Some speakers (JBL 7 series as example) have excessive hiss even at a quite high price point.
It's not about price, it's about willingness of managers/engineers to commit to the product.

 

[Jukka]

DIY speakers without crossover + 6 channels of NCore + 8 channel DSP + active subs = WIN

Active speakers doesn't need to be one-box solution.

 

[wgb113]

DIY speakers without crossover + 6 channels of NCore + 8 channel DSP + active subs = WIN

Active speakers doesn't need to be one-box solution.

Except for the fact that you then rule out 99% of consumers so your “WIN” is rather small.

 

[Jukka]

Except for the fact that you then rule out 99% of consumers so your “WIN” is rather small.

All of the above can be bought as plug and play components or almost complete products.

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE WINNER!

 

[aac]

Except for the fact that you then rule out 99% of consumers so your “WIN” is rather small.

JBL 7 series and JBL M2 looks like quite a successful product. You can both buy a ready-made DSP/amp from harman or do some DIY and make it yourself (they hid dsp settings, but you can still measure or look at it if you really want to).

 

[ernestcarl]

I bought the Kali LP-6 as desktop speakers and their hiss was bad enough to convince me to buy the Neumann KH 80. no hiss whatsoever at 1m

There seems to be always some hiss issue with these cheaper class D monitors nearfield. Moving them at a distance of 2m instead of 1m might solve the issue for most. Actually, my LS305s at 2m and at their max amp gain setting still has tiny amount of hiss (unbalanced connection). I only notice it the moment I turn the speakers on. After a few you minutes, it's all but lost around the background noise. *At 1m distance... it's intolerable long-term without any audio playing.

 

[Jukka]

Not sure what the alternative would be. Bring your own amplifiers/DSP/crossover and have the manufacturer provide the driver sensitivity/crossover slopes/parametric EQ/limiter settings? I think that would turn away 99% of customers. Or provide an external box with the electronics? Some monitors have that option, but it's less convenient, and for what benefit?

Also retains the hobby of switching individual devices at will. And a speaker should be cheaper if there are no electronics inside. It's like pros AND cons of both worlds!

 

[dwkdnvr]

DIY speakers without crossover + 6 channels of NCore + 8 channel DSP + active subs = WIN

Active speakers doesn't need to be one-box solution.

The problem is ergonomics. My requirement is not just 'my wife can use it to watch TV', but that if I'm traveling for work and we get a power outage or other glitch that causes something to go wrong, can my wife figure things out and still watch TV? Aside possibly from the Hypex Fusion amps, this is a remarkably high bar to clear in the DIY space - and even the fusion amps are a problem if you want to feed them digitally as a multi-input single-output digital switcher/preamp doesn't really exist in the consumer space. I ended up going with the MiniDSP SHD, but that's only a 2-way system - I'm not aware of anything comparable with a 3 or 4 way capability. In theory you could make a NanoDigi or something work, but that involves a lot of hacking and casework.

I'm a fan of the value proposition of active monitors, I just balk at the reliability question. With conventional passive setups, you always have an easy backup plan and can move something into the system to keep running if something breaks. These highly integrated and/or sohisticated designs don't score well on that front - if something goes wrong you're down until you fix/replace the very custom piece of the system. And, you better hope it's still available. Maybe I've just been burned by having too many things break on me - at least 3 AV receivers have croaked on me causing me to have to quickly retool. For something like the Hypex Fusion approach, I'd want a spare unit standing by 'just in case', which raises the cost (but not as much as buying a 3rd active monitor would)

 

[aac]

you're down until you fix/replace the very custom piece of the system. And, you better hope it's still available.

Not a problem if you use a computer as your DSP.
Multichannel sound cards/interfaces are widely available in any price range and with any choice of inputs/outputs (it can be quite expensive if you go for large amount of 3 way speakers in your room and you chose to use "high end" interface).
DSP and equaliser measurements files can be backed up.
Computer parts are easy to get too.
There is no sticking to any brand of hardware or software - everything can be done in various ways.
No "very custom parts" at all.

 

[dwkdnvr]

Not a problem if you use a computer as your DSP.
Multichannel sound cards/interfaces are widely available in any price range and with any choice of inputs/outputs (it can be quite expensive if you go for large amount of 3 way speakers in your room and you chose to use "high end" interface).
DSP and equaliser measurements files can be backed up.
Computer parts are easy to get too.
There is no sticking to any brand of hardware or software - everything can be done in various ways.
No "very custom parts" at all.

Sure, but the "can the wife fix it if it breaks" pretty much specifically rules out any PC based approach. "RDP/SSH into the system, and make sure X and Y and Z are running" isn't going to go over well. I did my first linux based FIR crossover system before Y2k - I think it was 1998. I like to think I know the overall landscape pretty well, and I'd probably be headed to divorce court if I tried to put a PC based DSP setup in the living room.

If it's for your own personal dedicated listening room setup, or a desktop system, then a PC based system has a lot of advantages. Doing it elegantly is another matter - the wiring mess can be a real problem.

 

[Igor Kirkwood]

There seems to be always some hiss issue with these cheaper class D monitors nearfield. Moving them at a distance of 2m instead of 1m might solve the issue for most. Actually, my LS305s at 2m and at their max amp gain setting still has tiny amount of hiss (unbalanced connection). I only notice it the moment I turn the speakers on. After a few you minutes, it's all but lost around the background noise. *At 1m distance... it's intolerable long-term without any audio playing.

If you are very young and if the amplifier is near you can ear noise .
If you are quite old as I am , you cannot generaly ear noise of an active loudspeake system.

If you want a better noise ratio, you must buy, if possible, an high level class d amplifier as Hypex NCore but with too much power.

 

[Jukka]

Sure, but the "can the wife fix it if it breaks" pretty much specifically rules out any PC based approach. "RDP/SSH into the system, and make sure X and Y and Z are running" isn't going to go over well. I did my first linux based FIR crossover system before Y2k - I think it was 1998. I like to think I know the overall landscape pretty well, and I'd probably be headed to divorce court if I tried to put a PC based DSP setup in the living room.

If it's for your own personal dedicated listening room setup, or a desktop system, then a PC based system has a lot of advantages. Doing it elegantly is another matter - the wiring mess can be a real problem.

If a typical wife needs to be able to fix it, you can rule out 200% of any audio gear.