Active Designs & Their Favorability

[jhaider]

Well, i must say that my experience is quite different than yours. I've tested nanodigi 2x8 and minidsp 2x4 on same loudspeakers and the difference in sound with same amplifiers on same loudspeakers is remarcable (in favor of the nanodigi).

Yes, gain structure problems can occur when a hobbyist patches together a bunch of different equipment. An additional point of control (here, a separate DAC) may be helpful in some cases. I've used a number of miniDSP devices and the only one that ever caused me any trouble was the original 2x4. That was because it had such low output voltage.

You maybe see it that way but that doesn't mean it is true. No one says that experts suck (although maybe some of them do) but companies do. I do trust measurements done by experts. What Amir is doing here is remarcable and sheds some light on what you call "the BEST" or "suitable to purpose". If Anselm Goertz from Sound&Recording hadn't measured all those active studio monitors, we would have to believe the manufacturers that they are linear.

While Prof. Dr. Goertz's monitor measurements are an excellent resource, they are out of the scope here. He measures the overall acoustic performance and does not obsess over subassemblies.

I guess the disagreement here is that I contend overall acoustic performance and usability factors are the things, and the perceived-by-hobbyists quality of the audio electronics is a shiny but dumb distraction. Overall acoustic performance and usability factors means on axis frequency response, off axis frequency response, headroom, reliability, and usability issues (self-noise, user interface, energy efficiency, and so on). Any electronics that can provide those things are fine. Further "improvements" are more likely than not for marketing rather than performance.

@LTig How can we know if that is the best sound those driver units can provide or it can be even better with better amps ?

Because they're just amps. What does "better" even mean here? If the supplied amps have sufficient headroom to meet the SPL targets, while being quiet, reliable, and energy efficient, who cares what they are? They can be the latest THX-corifi SINAD darlings, or they can be a design dating from 1976. It does not matter.

 

[Zvu]

@jhaider

-Gain wasn't the problem. There was no hiss. I do know how to preserve s/n ratio in active loudspeaker quite well.

-As for the rest of the text, if you have never experienced audible difference between two amplifiers or DACs, then i have to agree with you - there is nothing to discuss with you further.

 

[edechamps]

if you have never experienced audible difference between two amplifiers or DACs, then i have to agree with you - there is nothing to discuss with you further.

Since you seem to somehow have access to previously undiscovered data, please, do provide your link to a controlled double-blind test that found audible differences between two properly engineered amplifiers or DACs when used within their limits (i.e. no clipping). If you can't do that, then I have to agree with you - there is nothing to discuss with you further.

 

[Zvu]

@edechamps I feel negativity in your tone Don't get emotional, we're talking, right ?

David Clark and Michael Fremer organized a double-blind test at the AES, 1988. This would be the most famous one. Most famous one because it included few well known reviewers.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/blind-listening-letters

 

[Racheski]

If the Vanatoo hiss bothers you, you'll probably need to go to Neumanns. The Vanatoo hiss is pretty low level, I can only hear it if I turn my idling PC off from ~60cm.

Doesn't bother me enough to spend the $ for Neumanns
Cheaper alternatives with no hiss?

 

[LTig]

@edechamps I feel negativity in your tone Don't get emotional, we're talking, right ?

David Clark and Michael Fremer organized a double-blind test at the AES, 1988. This would be the most famous one. Most famous one because it included few well known reviewers.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/blind-listening-letters

Well, those 2 amps certainly did sound different, because 1 of them was 2 dB down at 20 kHz (due to higher than allowed output impedance with the difficult load, as was stated).

However, a driver without crossover (active speaker) does not present a difficult load to the amp, and in those cases where the designer intentionally choses a difficult load I expect him to chose a matching power amp.

 

[Old Listener]

Agreed. Which makes these cheap, pretend-pro models useless, and I'm surprised they get so much coverage on a science forum. I worked at a mixing desk, sometimes 12 hours at a time, and if my monitors audibly hissed I would have pulled them out and burned them. Simply not fit for purpose. Why don't we just say so?

What do you use now? How much did amp + speakers cost?

If they cost considerably more than $100-150 / active speaker, why are you so worked up about the amount of hiss from speakers at that price level?

Earlier, you said that such products should't be made. What about someone for whom $ 200-300 is all they can afford? Should they be denied product choices that deliver good sound?

 

[Inner Space]

What do you use now? How much did amp + speakers cost?

If they cost considerably more than $100-150 / active speaker, why are you so worked up about the amount of hiss from speakers at that price level?

Earlier, you said that such products should't be made. What about someone for whom $ 200-300 is all they can afford? Should they be denied product choices that deliver good sound?

If you think audible hiss at the LP is "good sound", then we're miles apart, I'm afraid. For the price, impecunious listeners have a huge range of used choices, mostly passive, most of which will do way better. I'm "worked up" (as you characterize it) because this is a science forum and you're all dancing around a subset of hopelessly compromised cheaped-out junk, pretending it's somehow worthy of consideration. Members here get "worked up" about all kinds of audiophool delusions - isn't it equally a delusion to respect a blinged-out computer speaker, just because it looks all "studio"? I could go to the pawnshop right now with $200- $300 and come back with something the science community would recognize as far superior in every parameter. Why isn't that the advice we're giving?

Nowadays I have several systems in several locations, but I spent the usual number of years flat broke, and I made do and mended, so I know all about budget choices - and never once did I have audible hiss at the LP.

 

[LTig]

I could go to the pawnshop right now with $200- $300 and come back with something the science community would recognize as far superior in every parameter.

What would that be? Seriously interested!

 

[Sancus]

Honestly can't figure out why people get so worked up about hiss. If the speakers reduced gain when music isn't playing then the hiss would be gone but the impact on sound quality would be exactly nothing.

It's a trade off like everything else, and it may not even matter depending on your listening distance. Personally I wouldn't buy JBL LSRs but that's because I am willing to commit more money, I think they're fine as casual listening, desktop, or hobbyist mixing tools. I doubt any serious pros use them as a primary system.

Hyperfocusing on this one thing is ignoring many other factors.

 

[Inner Space]

What would that be? Seriously interested!

I was in there Thursday, as it happens - I always drop in when I get gas next door, to check what bass guitars they've gotten in, hoping to see a beat-up Fender Jazz I can take the neck off (great Jazz necks being worth their weight in gold to me). There's a wall of 10 - 40-yr-old integrated amps and receivers, and a wall of speakers. I noticed a couple each of Kenwoods, Sansuis, Pioneers, Rotels, Yamahas, etc, between $75 and $100, and pairs of Advents and Dynacos and so on around the same price - even a faded and scratched Snell Type C (I think). Add $100 for a DAC, and you're under $300 for better sound than a pair of hissing black plastic eggs.

 

[Inner Space]

Honestly can't figure out why people get so worked up about hiss.

Then why get worked up about anything? Audible hiss at the LP (which is what we're talking about) is lazy, shoddy design and a gross imperfection. If we're chill about that, then let's be chill about everything.

 

[Sancus]

Then why get worked up about anything? Audible hiss at the LP (which is what we're talking about) is lazy, shoddy design and a gross imperfection. If we're chill about that, then let's be chill about everything.

Correct, no reason to get worked up about anything that is just a trade off. You're assuming that any random passive speakers are gonna sound better, that isn't the case, the reason the JBLs are considered a value is because they sound better than plenty of other speakers at higher price points.

Of course you are going to be able to find better values used, but it will require some knowledge, research, and time, which is equivalent to money. The idea that any random old Yamahas, Pioneers or whatever are going to sound better than the JBLs is pretty unlikely. Note that the HS5s measure a lot worse than the JBLs.

If the hiss bothers you, you return them or don't buy them in the first place. The only thing I have a problem with is that JBL doesn't publish their self-noise levels, but well, they don't publish specs for a lot of things compared to Neumann and Genelec and that is one reason I consider them a step behind as a manufacturer.

E: Adding, a pair of certain Pioneers combined with a $150-$200 recommended amp might indeed sound better, it'd be interesting to see the blind test there for sure.

 

[Inner Space]

Correct, no reason to get worked up about anything that is just a trade off. You're assuming that any random passive speakers are gonna sound better, that isn't the case, the reason the JBLs are considered a value is because they sound better than plenty of other speakers at higher price points.

Of course you are going to be able to find better values used, but it will require some knowledge, research, and time, which is equivalent to money. The idea that any random old Yamahas, Pioneers or whatever are going to sound better than the JBLs is pretty unlikely.

The random old Yamahas and Pioneers I mentioned were electronics, not speakers. I just find it weird that amid the general scorn heaped on deficient products on this site, audible hiss seems to attract so much exculpatory hand-waving.

 

[Zvu]

@LTig There were three amps (Treshold, Crown and VTL), but who's counting.

....in those cases where the designer intentionally choses a difficult load I expect him to chose a matching power amp.

And that's just one part where i don't see the wast majority of manufacturers will make the right call. They write "nearfield" studio monitor on it to be able to justify lousy sound when you go to mid/far field becuse they cheaped out - how's that acceptable ? And we haven't touched dsp/DACs and their performance. I mentioned few that proved their engineering value so i won't repeat myself.

 

[Hrodulf]

If I were to meet two identically excellent speakers with the only difference being that one is active and the other - passively filtered, I'd probably go for the passive one. The problem is that I haven't so far encountered such a dilemma, so actives are the way forward for me.

 

[Sancus]

The random old Yamahas and Pioneers I mentioned were electronics, not speakers. I just find it weird that amid the general scorn heaped on deficient products on this site, audible hiss seems to attract so much exculpatory hand-waving.

That's fair, I agree, it is a bit weird that some people get worked up about inaudible issues with electronics while audible issues like this can seemingly be excused. I tend to be in the camp that rolls my eyes about 90 vs 110 SINAD DACs as well, of course, so at least I'm consistent.

Sometimes the hiss isn't audible for certain people in certain conditions so I think that is part of why it gets excused. Any time I DO recommend these speakers I caveat it with 'they do audibly hiss, it may or may not bother you'. Which is why I made this post. But I wouldn't recommend them as primary speakers for anyone who is very serious about audio. As a casual/background system, they're fit for purpose imo.

 

[RayDunzl]

JBL LSR 308 Hissy Fit:

Here's the hiss - microphone 1" from the tweeter:

And with the speaker powered off:

And back at listening position, about 10 feet away, speakers on:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-lsr-308-in-the-house.1066/#post-27832

 

[jhaider]

-Gain wasn't the problem. There was no hiss. I do know how to preserve s/n ratio in active loudspeaker quite well.

You're very quick to shout down rational explanations for observed experience, but for some reason alternate hypotheses are not on offer.

-As for the rest of the text, if you have never experienced audible difference between two amplifiers or DACs, then i have to agree with you - there is nothing to discuss with you further.

If you listen in the same slapdash manner you react to written text, then clearly it is very possible for you to "experience" (nice wiggle word!) audible differences between two amplifiers or DACs.

Your lack of answer to the direct question “What does "better" even mean here?” is also illuminating.

Note that I never wrote that I have never heard differences in amps. (I actually haven't ever heard a non-noise related audible difference in DACs, though I value my time too much to explore standalone DACs in any detail.) Anyone who has been in this hobby for a while has encountered encountered badly made boutique amps with poorly matched channels, amplifiers with output impedance that corrupts the loudspeaker's frequency response, noisy amps (circuitry or external noise such as transformer hum or loud fans), ground loops, and so on. However, as I wrote above amps integrated into a closed system "sufficient headroom to meet the SPL targets, while being quiet, reliable, and energy efficient" are all just amps. If you're a careful and deliberate listener, you will reach the same conclusion. I left off "flat frequency response" because in the context of a closed system, the amplifier subassembly's frequency response is irrelevant.

Furthermore, citing Mikey effing Fremer as he commits to print the "experts suck" viewpoint I outlined above is not going to win you style points with the audience here. I’m much more interested in the late Mr. Clark’s interpretation of events than Mikey’s. Yet you chose not to provide a serious viewpoint. Why?

 

[Sancus]

JBL LSR 308 Hissy Fit:
Here's the hiss - microphone 1" from the tweeter:

Yeah, yours look consistent with the other measurements in the thread. So about 8-15dB from 2khz on up, with the most between 10-20khz. The other sample also has a peak around 2khz though, so who knows, could be sample variance.

It seems like that ought to be inaudible by about 30cm, but clearly it's not to everyone. The ability to notice this is very environment and hearing dependent, 5-10dB loss from 2khz on up is hardly uncommon.