Active Designs & Their Favorability

[Ron Texas]

Ron, what's the specific difficulty in solving this problem? Seems to be solved in passive systems. 24 years ago I bought a pair of 104dB/w La Scalas, and found many amps to be silent, even with my ear on the tweeter horn. What is it about active systems that makes such performance problematical?

La Scala's are not on your desktop and actives are stuck with the amp they came with. Apples and oranges....

 

[Inner Space]

La Scala's are not on your desktop and actives are stuck with the amp they came with. Apples and oranges....

But my ear was closer than a desktop set-up when I tested. And "stuck with" is no answer. Why doesn't the manufacturer stick us with an amp that doesn't hiss? Is it just cost saving, or is there an inherent reason?

 

[Zvu]

You cannot select a DAC that is audibly better than a transparent DAC in a great studio monitor.
You cannot select an amplifier that is audibly better than a transparent amp in a great studio monitor.
You may be able to find a DSP that works better than inbuilt or company specific DSP solutions...

First two claims are quite bold. To be able to claim that, we would need to give to Amir those inbuilt DAC's to be tested with everything in place and compare measurements to other standalone DAC's and amplifiers.

Do you really think that stuff they put in active loudspeakers are THE BEST ? They are NOT. They are good enough for planned price range. Oh they did optimise the cheapest amplifier/DAC/DSP they could find to achieve the level of performance they aim for a certain price range. No manufacturer uses BEST unless profit is at least 10 times the investment and those are always flagship super-expensive products.

Even in Neumann you'll get good enough, not the best out there - believe it or don't, it's up to you.

 

[Ron Texas]

But my ear was closer than a desktop set-up when I tested. And "stuck with" is no answer. Why doesn't the manufacturer stick us with an amp that doesn't hiss? Is it just cost saving, or is there an inherent reason?

How would I know what manufacturers choose to do?

 

[Sancus]

But my ear was closer than a desktop set-up when I tested. And "stuck with" is no answer. Why doesn't the manufacturer stick us with an amp that doesn't hiss? Is it just cost saving, or is there an inherent reason?

There are so many variables involved in being able to hear these extremely low levels of self-noise though. In the case of the JBLs, where it's sortof high, the whole package sells for far less than any actually good class D amplifier BY ITSELF. So I'm sure the reason is relatively high noise floor in the cheap amplifier they've used. And the advantages of their choice probably outweigh the other options with the same thermal, size, and power consumption characteristics.

For the better monitors, we are talking about noise levels several times below the normal domestic floor. Frankly, I think some people are just more sensitive to this type of noise than others. Pretty much all electronics make noise. I don't care about the noise my Vanatoo T0s make because it's lower level than the PC right next to them, and even solid state electronics make noise. Some people obsess over "coil whine", some people think it's practically a myth. All down to individual hearing and sensitivity.

My Magnepan 1.7is hiss connected to my living room signal chain of Denon X4500H -> External amplifier(A Class D Audio SDS-470C). It's only audible if I'm right up against the panel at night when it's very quiet, but it's there.

I am curious if there is any detectable hiss from the studio monitors that use extremely expensive, top tier class D amps, like I believe the Kii 3s use Hypex modules. Not sure about the D&D 8C. There are some other very expensive actives that use Hypex Ncores, like the Grimm LS1.

 

[Inner Space]

How would I know what manufacturers choose to do?

Well, evidently you don't. Which surprises me a little, after your confident assertion that "it's a difficult problem to solve". Usually such pronouncements are based on expert knowledge of the extent, nature and cause of such difficulties. How do you know it's not an easy problem to solve? I guess you don't either, which makes your comment ... what, exactly?

 

[jhaider]

Do you really think that stuff they put in active loudspeakers are THE BEST ? They are NOT. They are good enough for planned price range.

With audio electronics, I've usually found "suitable to purpose" and "the BEST" are audible equivalents. The primary remaining gremlins are user interface and, as others have noted, self-noise such as hiss. Even an antiquated DSP is fine as long as it (a) allows the engineering team to dial in their desired transfer functions, and (b) does not introduce lots of noise.

The next thought may be a radical notion to proponents of a postmodernist, experts suck, any-old-hack-can-do-any-job world (an unfortunately large proportion of the population!), however: generally wouldn't one think practicing engineering teams with test labs, prototyping capabilities, and support of a purchasing department to obtain samples are better situated to determine appropriate electronics to drive a loudspeaker than a hobbyist reading spec sheets, third party bench reports, and subjective reviews on the internet?

 

[q3cpma]

First two claims are quite bold. To be able to claim that, we would need to give to Amir those inbuilt DAC's to be tested with everything in place and compare measurements to other standalone DAC's and amplifiers.

Do you really think that stuff they put in active loudspeakers are THE BEST ? They are NOT. They are good enough for planned price range. Oh they did optimise the cheapest amplifier/DAC/DSP they could find to achieve the level of performance they aim for a certain price range. No manufacturer uses BEST unless profit is at least 10 times the investment and those are always flagship super-expensive products.

Even in Neumann you'll get good enough, not the best out there - believe it or don't, it's up to you.

It doesn't need to be "the best", though. Only better than the quite high speaker distorsion and with low enough noise. I really don't see the point of analysing anything but the final performance.

 

[Inner Space]

For the better monitors, we are talking about noise levels several times below the normal domestic floor.

Agreed. Which makes these cheap, pretend-pro models useless, and I'm surprised they get so much coverage on a science forum. I worked at a mixing desk, sometimes 12 hours at a time, and if my monitors audibly hissed I would have pulled them out and burned them. Simply not fit for purpose. Why don't we just say so?

 

[Mountain Goat]

I have to put my ear across the tweeter horn to hear anything with my Adam A5Xs. One time I thought I heard snap, crackle, and pop out of the left one, but it was the faint sound from a can of Diet Coke I set down 3 feet from the speaker.

 

[Zvu]

With audio electronics, I've usually found "suitable to purpose" and "the BEST" are audible equivalents. The primary remaining gremlins are user interface and, as others have noted, self-noise such as hiss. Even an antiquated DSP is fine as long as it (a) allows the engineering team to dial in their desired transfer functions, and (b) does not introduce lots of noise...

Well, i must say that my experience is quite different than yours. I've tested nanodigi 2x8 and minidsp 2x4 on same loudspeakers and the difference in sound with same amplifiers on same loudspeakers is remarcable (in favor of the nanodigi). Since i worked in loudspeaker service/repair department for a year some 15 years ago, i have oppened quite a few passive and active loudspeakers. Most of the time it's the cheapest crap that will do the job just few years after warranty expires.

.....
The next thought may be a radical notion to proponents of a postmodernist, experts suck, any-old-hack-can-do-any-job world (an unfortunately large proportion of the population!), however: generally wouldn't one think practicing engineering teams with test labs, prototyping capabilities, and support of a purchasing department to obtain samples are better situated to determine appropriate electronics to drive a loudspeaker than a hobbyist reading spec sheets, third party bench reports, and subjective reviews on the internet?

You maybe see it that way but that doesn't mean it is true. No one says that experts suck (although maybe some of them do) but companies do. I do trust measurements done by experts. What Amir is doing here is remarcable and sheds some light on what you call "the BEST" or "suitable to purpose". If Anselm Goertz from Sound&Recording hadn't measured all those active studio monitors, we would have to believe the manufacturers that they are linear. Those 80+ measurements he published in studiomonitor special shows how manufacturers mind works. Truth is that experts that are doing the engineering part of the job are collateral damage, limited by the projected budget from one side and by wish to do the least compromised design from other (at least the ones that have some work ethics).

 

[Zvu]

It doesn't need to be "the best", though. Only better than the quite high speaker distorsion and with low enough noise. I really don't see the point of analysing anything but the final performance.

Analysing the final product is what is being done on this website and by Ansel Goertz and there actually are very few winners: Genelec, new Adam stuff, JBL M2, Neumann. If you go through those measurements, you'll see that there is very few that are worth having. Most of them are active and some experts worked on them with all those test labs, prototyping capabilities etc. They either "missed" a few things, or they knew exactly what they are doing.

But, times have changed. We can measure now, so third parties can and will do very precise measurements to objectively and subjectively assess the performance.

So, i do agree with you. Final performance is what counts, but it is rarely any good.

 

[Old Listener]

But my ear was closer than a desktop set-up when I tested. And "stuck with" is no answer. Why doesn't the manufacturer stick us with an amp that doesn't hiss? Is it just cost saving, or is there an inherent reason?

Several people have commented that their active speakers with built-in amps have no appreciable hiss. Mine don't.

You seem to have generalized from reports on hiss from some models to a sweeping statement that all active monitors have a problem with audible hiss. A poor basis for righteous indignation.

 

[LTig]

Analysing the final product is what is being done on this website and by Ansel Goertz and there actually are very few winners: Genelec, new Adam stuff, JBL M2, Neumann. If you go through those measurements, you'll see that there is very few that are worth having. Most of them is active and some experts worked on them with all those test labs, prototyping capabilities etc. They either "missed" a few things, or they knew exactly what they are doing.

But, times has now changed. We can measure now, so third parties can and will do very precise measurements to objectively and subjectively assess the performance.

So, i do agree with you. Final performance is what counts, but it is rarely any good.

I agree with both of you. Final performance counts, but even a winner like Neumann does not use SOTA power amps. Actually Neumann (and former Klein&Hummel) use chip amps (TDA7294 or 7293 in O300D, ~$5 a piece) as power amps, in single, bridged or (in case of the KH420) quad configuration. So it seems that you don't need SOTA power amps to get a very good sounding active speaker.

 

[Zvu]

@LTig How can we know if that is the best sound those driver units can provide or it can be even better with better amps ? We can't, right ? Generally, i tend to agree that if it measures right and you can't hear anything wrong with it, you should probably stop there. But too much loudspeakers doesn't measure right and when i see that, what am i to think about their attention to electronics ?

If i were to buy active loudspeakers now, i'd stick to newer Adam, Genelec, Neumann. Maybe there are more brands that share the engineering values as those three, but for now i consider any other brand a shot in the dark, unless i find a particular model measured in high resolution by an independent source or i borrow the loudspeaker to measure it myself.

 

[Inner Space]

You seem to have generalized from reports on hiss from some models to a sweeping statement that all active monitors have a problem with audible hiss. A poor basis for righteous indignation.

Incorrect, I'm afraid. See post #69, where I differentiate clearly between competent designs and the pretend-pro crap.

 

[LTig]

@LTig How can we know if that is the best sound those driver units can provide or it can be even better with better amps ? We can't, right ?

I'm not that pessimistic. Neumann engineers the speaker as a whole, and this means optimum sound for the given budget. Using better specced amps with a higher price tag means cutting costs at the drivers - and vice versa. So one can assume that the current package is the optimum. The fact that the current top model KH420 uses the same chip amps as the KH310 (just more of them) says enough in my view.

Throwing more money to the power amps while keeping the drivers may improve the numbers for a higher price tag but I'm not sure at all whether the improvement would be audible.

 

[Zvu]

That was just an example. Neumann, Adam and Genelec i trust until proven otherwise and vice versa for other brands

 

[aac]

Agreed. Which makes these cheap, pretend-pro models useless, and I'm surprised they get so much coverage on a science forum. I worked at a mixing desk, sometimes 12 hours at a time, and if my monitors audibly hissed I would have pulled them out and burned them. Simply not fit for purpose. Why don't we just say so?

They obviously have a different target market.
The target market for "pretend pro crap" are people who want slightly more advanced computer speakers and it just happened that it is a good idea to market them as "monitors" instead of just "speakers" for that audience.
You are trying to evaluate them from a wrong perspective.

 

[maverickronin]

Where do you even draw the line on what counts as "pretend" pro without independent measurements? Price and who they market too are no indication of quality.

The Ocean Way HR5 are crap, and definitely "pro". Amir didn't mention if they hiss though...