Active Crossover - I can't do this anymore.

[pderousse]

It has served me well, but I've grown tired of my current crossover. Today, I noticed that I hadn't listened to music in weeks, and when that happens I usually suspect something amiss in my rig that is keeping me away from sour. I noticed two woofers on the left channel were not really functioning and that everything was routed through one channel on the preamp fader - weird. I tested output with a battery at the amp - AOK. I tested input with a meter at the speaker - AOK. Next, I suspected the MiniDSP, but was unable to connect to it through USB to the computer. I changed the USB cable, restarted the computer, checked drivers, updated windows, crashed it twice, rebooted MiniDSP, changed batteries on the bluetooth keyboard I never use, rechecked the mix route, the DSP, DIRAC, etc. Everything was all wrong, but two hours later, my system was back! It sounded great and I even saw my wife bobbing her head.

I can't do this anymore.

Although I know I can't hear the difference, I do not like the idea of making multiple AD-DA conversions, because there are just too many potential faults involved. I need something grown-up. I love the idea of DEQX and maybe that's the only solution but a beta-model is $8K, and does that mean I am still tinkering while they get things right for the $16K MSRP? I love everything about the Okto on paper, but it's still half a loaf (I'd need a preamp and to tinker with RPi). I know MiniDSP has new things happening. Maybe I need an upgrade? What I really need is less complexity.

Is there anything that takes both a digital (RJ45 preferably) and an analog signal, does the crossover/DSP and volume control, and then outputs to 6-8 amps without involving ancilary computers?

 

[DWPress]

I can feel your pain. I started doing active XO about 10 years ago with a miniDSP 4x10 and the annoyance of the proprietary plugin that didn't always perform as expected (Flash based GUI back then). The forced 96kHz sampling AD-DA bothered me too but you're right - neither one of us probably could tell the difference.

I've had my Okto for a few years now and love it for doing all my signal routing and EQ on my Mac/PC. The new firmware that is about to be released will give the DAC8 Pro some pretty great new features including crossovers, IIR EQ and biquads, channel delays and more. It'll take a little coding knowledge but not terrible and hopefully a GUI will be forthcoming from somewhere. All this is saved into the firmware so the Okto could work isolated from a computer but the biggest advantage of the Okto is its digital connectivity!

I have a separate ADC with AES digital output into the Okto so I can go from any balanced/unbalanced analog source to the computer to record or signal processing and then back to the Okto and XLR out to the amps.

There are several ways you could go hardware wise but not a lot of options for "all in one" devices like the miniDSP products. You could potentially do what I'm doing with any pro audio 8ch DAC but for functionality and curb appeal features it's a great device still worthy of your consideration.

 

[pderousse]

I had the 4x10 back then too. And don’t get me wrong, I’ve been as loyal to MiniDSP as to Hypex, which says a lot. They have great products. What an upgrade from a Behringer 2496 with a dressed up PC.

Curb appeal and technical specs of the Okto are superb. I have an RPi doing DNS on my network and it is as reliable as a lightbulb, but it was a pain to set up. Sounds like the okto functions much like a minidsp, using a RPi vel sim. by usb to do the GUI / crossover which it then saves in its own memory. But then, that’s my problem, I still need a way to feed a turntable, so an additional AD converter too. Don’t audiophiles all use subwoofers now? Why can’t they make preamps like AV Processors - ridiculous I/O options.

If someone has a Deqx, I’d like to hear about your experience.

 

[DWPress]

I'm a lot less a mindsp fan these days but digging the Hypex action too. Still have the 4x10, scheming a way I could do AES out as input to the Okto. Fortunately I am content with 8 channels lol.

The new firmware does essentially mimic the miniDSP settings. The SHARK board in the Okto is the same I believe but with much better XMOS implementation, DACs and I/O. I'm currently playing with the beta firmware right now and @mdsimon2 has already had big success with it, start reading here. The XO and DSP are saved into the Okto's firmware memory and you can control different saved profiles from the remote or default to non custom firmware. More info here.

I have a turntable I connect via my phono preamp > ADC > AES into Okto which then goes to computer via USB, processed, then back to Okto for 8ch. My old MSB ADC shown and measured here.

edit: you can still add in Dirac, DLBC or even Dirac ART if you want (or any other similar RC app) if you keep a small computer in the loop.

 

[mdsimon2]

The miniDSP HTx fits your needs and is the only 8 channel platform they currently produce that has digital and analog inputs. I think you will have a hard time finding a simpler system than miniDSP, at least with the same processing capability.

I think the Okto is great and gives you some unique capabilities. I know you are against a computer but setting up a RPi with CamillaDSP for use with the Okto in USB/AES mode is very easy, all it takes is about 15 minutes of copy / paste command line work, see link in my signature for more info. After that the GUI is easy to use.

The new Okto DSP firmware is also quite powerful. If you just want to implement an existing DSP routine, I'd be happy to try it on my Okto to check the DSP load and see if it is feasible. This would eliminate the computer for DSP, although you would need a computer to initially load the DSP routine.

Michael

 

[DWPress]

This would eliminate the computer for DSP, although you would need a computer to initially load the DSP routine.

I haven't gone into the new FW as much as you - is there a way to route an ADC on AES input to be processed internally and output to 8ch without a computer for playback?

 

[Keith_W]

If someone has a Deqx, I’d like to hear about your experience.

@fatoldgit you might like to chime in here.

BTW I don't see what a DEQX gives you that you don't already have with a MiniDSP, if usability is what you are after. DEQX gives you FIR filters, but I did not see you mention that. Would you be able to explain?

 

[levimax]

I recently switched from analog active crossovers to full digital crossovers (PC and Motu Ultralite 5) and while the digital crossovers allow me to make changes easily I am not sure how much of an improvement it is and the analog active crossovers "just worked" and are much more reliable and don't require an inherently unreliable (updates can break things) computer to work. If you have the crossover curves you like dialed in on MiniDSP it would not be hard to build or buy an analog active crossover to duplicate them and then no more AD / DA conversions or other computer issues to worry about. It also would not cost much.

 

[mdsimon2]

I haven't gone into the new FW as much as you - is there a way to route an ADC on AES input to be processed internally and output to 8ch without a computer for playback?

Yes, that is how I am using it, with an AES input (PureAES mode). The sketch below shows how the routing goes through the DSP cores depending on operating mode.

I have my configuration so that when it is in PureAES mode it takes channels 8 and 9 (AES1/2) as input. When in PureUSB mode this changes and I use channels 16 and 17 (USB1/2) as input. If in USB/AES mode I do not apply any DSP in the Okto.

The firmware I am using only allows for 2 channels of AES input, but it has the option to treat all AES inputs as independent stereo inputs. You switch between them by changing the operating mode, PureAES = AES1/2, PureAES2 = AES3/4, PureAES3 = AES5/6, PureAES4 = AES7/8. I am only using one input currently, but I could setup more channel routing options as described above to use the correct inputs for PureAES2, PureAES3 and PureAES4.

Michael

 

[DWPress]

I am not sure how much of an improvement it is and the analog active crossovers "just worked"

They worked but only with a fixed slope, no channel delays, EQ or perfect channel balance. I personally would not go back to analog XOs.

 

[levimax]

They worked but only with a fixed slope, no channel delays, EQ or perfect channel balance. I personally would not go back to analog XOs.

I agree but the OP is frustrated and I can understand why. Most of the issues you mentioned can be worked around except individual channel delay with the analog xover controls and Rephase especially if the OP has his crossover slopes and points and gains worked out in mini-dsp as I mentioned.

 

[pderousse]

@fatoldgit you might like to chime in here.

BTW I don't see what a DEQX gives you that you don't already have with a MiniDSP, if usability is what you are after. DEQX gives you FIR filters, but I did not see you mention that. Would you be able to explain?

Thanks, I’m after reliability. I know they basically do the same thing, and what can be done. I don’t want to have to reconfigure everything because there was a windows update or, as I suspect in this case, there was a power surge and Mdsp lost its ability to communicate with the computer by usb.

I’m looking for a grown up preamp (and complaining too much, bc I know it probably does not exist for a sane price.) and may be at the point of paying for it.

@fatoldgit you might like to chime in here.

BTW I don't see what a DEQX gives you that you don't already have with a MiniDSP, if usability is what you are after. DEQX gives you FIR filters, but I did not see you mention that. Would you be able to explain?

 

[Anthony LoFi]

Hi pedrousse,

Are you suggesting that your existing software chain that processes the D/A to your speakers changes its crossover parameters between powered sessions of listening?

i.e The system sounds great then you notice on subsequent listening you turn on your system and its sounds "different" and upon investigation the crossover settings have changed !

 

[holdingpants01]

Maybe some good active speakers? Like some bigger Genelecs with 9320A. Not being able to tinker too much is a plus if the goal is to just listen to music without worry

 

[Keith_W]

Thanks, I’m after reliability. I know they basically do the same thing, and what can be done. I don’t want to have to reconfigure everything because there was a windows update or, as I suspect in this case, there was a power surge and Mdsp lost its ability to communicate with the computer by usb.

I suspect you should be placing the blame on Windows and not the MiniDSP? I have not heard of a MiniDSP changing its software settings on its own, this is the first time I have heard of it. I would have thought that anything not connected to the internet should be pretty robust. A DEQX might have the same problem. If anything, it may even be less reliable since it's a new product and hasn't undergone as much testing as the MiniDSP.

This does not mean there aren't good reasons to go with DEQX. The reason I would pay extra and go DEQX is because it can do linear phase FIR filters instead of mixed phase like the MiniDSP. Or if you don't want to pay that much, you can DIY a Raspberry Pi ... but then you did indicate that robustness and simplicity was a priority.

 

[Anthony LoFi]

I suspect you should be placing the blame on Windows and not the MiniDSP? I have not heard of a MiniDSP changing its software settings on its own, this is the first time I have heard of it. I would have thought that anything not connected to the internet should be pretty robust. A DEQX might have the same problem. If anything, it may even be less reliable since it's a new product and hasn't undergone as much testing as the MiniDSP.

This does not mean there aren't good reasons to go with DEQX. The reason I would pay extra and go DEQX is because it can do linear phase FIR filters instead of mixed phase like the MiniDSP. Or if you don't want to pay that much, you can DIY a Raspberry Pi ... but then you did indicate that robustness and simplicity was a priority.

That's the point why I was asking Keith. The OP said his USB was faulty or something in the system crashed.

I use an SHD in combination with a mini 2XHD to replace my passive two speakers and implement a pair of subs.
I have never had the D/A crossover settings change in the last two years of nearly daily use. I power off my entire system when not in use.
The only time of possible confusion is with the readily available 4 presets on the remote which I have loaded with other settings which could be accidentally changed too.

Suggesting active speakers or replacing the component is valid if we know that the problem lies within the component and it cant be fixed.
From the OP's description, it could be other factors and not the miniDSP.

PS:
The real benefit of DEQX is the room correction software which is claimed to be very good.
This small boutique manufacturer has for many years ungraded its many models and believe they are well appreciated by their users.

 

[pderousse]

@fatoldgit you might like to chime in here.

BTW I don't see what a DEQX gives you that you don't already have with a MiniDSP, if usability is what you are after. DEQX gives you FIR filters, but I did not see you mention that. Would you be able to explain?

Thanks, I’m after reliability. I know they basically do the same thing. I don’t want to have to reconfigure everything because there was a windows update or, as I suspect in this case, there was a power surge and Mdsp lost its ability to communicate with the computer by usb.

I’m looking for a grown up preamp: streamer+analog, DSP, volume, 8x xover with xlr I/o.

 

[Keith_W]

In that case, I regret to inform you that there are probably no other options that are better than the MiniDSP for your requirements

There is DEQX, but as mentioned - the advantage of DEQX is much more CPU power allowing linear phase FIR filters with 32k taps per channel. Is it more reliable? I don't know, but I doubt it. It's still in beta after all.

There is also Danville DSP Nexus. It has the same drawbacks as the MiniDSP (uses the same SHARC DSP engine, but 5th generation with more power). Still requires mixed phase filters. But with the additional very serious drawback of requiring the use of AudioWeaver. This is an engineering development tool - very powerful, but probably beyond the means of most enthusiasts to understand, AND it needs an annual subscription.

One POTENTIAL option is a superseded DEQX model, like the HDP-3 or HDP-4. It's another mixed phase DSP unit - uses linear phase FIR for crossovers, and minimum phase IIR for room EQ. I used to own one, and I have not heard of any complaints of unreliability.

The market for DSP boxes is very small and the biggest player is MiniDSP. The product has its weaknesses, but from what I have seen - unreliability is not commonly reported. Now that I think about it, I do believe another ASR member did have trouble with his MiniDSP (thread here). He ended up going with the new DEQX @Old Hi-Fi Guy

 

[pderousse]

Thanks for your replies. It probably is windows. I’ve owned 2 minidsp units over the years and I’ve never seen quite this kind of fault where settings changed, but I have lost USB connectivity several times and been forced to reboot minidsp sometimes. Maybe I need to look into running RPi with it, until the new DEQX units become stable. It seems like a fair amount of headache there too.

 

[gnarly]

Thanks, I’m after reliability. I know they basically do the same thing. I don’t want to have to reconfigure everything because there was a windows update or, as I suspect in this case, there was a power surge and Mdsp lost its ability to communicate with the computer by usb.

I’m looking for a grown up preamp: streamer+analog, DSP, volume, 8x xover with xlr I/o.

Go industrial, where reliability is paramount. I advocate Q-Sys (or any industrial equivalent).
Hardware is a dedicated Linux box named a Core (various models) Open architecture processor design software on PC is easy to learn. Flexibility nearly beyond belief.