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Accurate and boring or colored and fun

MakeMineVinyl

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What does Paul mean when he 4:20 in the video says that even if amplifiers measure the same, they sound different? He does not talk as much about distortion as he talks about sound signature. By the way if a sound signatur exists, is it not a distortion and or a deviation from the frequency curve? That what I can interpret from what has emerged, has been said, in this thread anyway.

What, Que? Have I missed something now? That is, I thought that if two different amplifiers measure the same (on all parameters that you can measure that you know can affect the performance) they sounds the same. Or? I'm puzzled and confused about what Paul's saying.

Paul above all is trying to sell his products and as such, what he says should be viewed with the same scrutiny as any other person making sales claims. There is a spectrum of sellers which range from entirely truthful to outright snake oil salesmen; Paul is somewhere in the middle with some of what he says based on solid science, and some being pure nonsense. Take what he says accordingly. ;)
 

Robin L

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They were dressed for opening night at Carnegie Hall, but that new console sounds 'better than live,' so they decided to stay home. (Imaging is rather too unfocused in the concert hall, and they can't hear the breathing of the soloist and stamping of the conductor at the podium, unlike on the new home system.)

The records on the floor are the reject pile, to be thrown away. They used to be favorite recordings, but the sound no longer pleases them now that they have sophisticated audiophile tastes thanks to the new system.

:D
The look in that gal's eyes - - - is this some sort of early MKULTRA test run?

RCA HIGH FIDELITY AD 2.png
 

Hugo9000

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The look in that gal's eyes - - - is this some sort of early MKULTRA test run?

View attachment 153921
I think she's the prototype model for The Stepford Wives.

To some, it was a cautionary tale. To audiophiles, it was escapist fantasy. After all, it was rich audiophiles who coined the passive/aggressive term "Wife Acceptance Factor," which runs counter to their own desires to take over the home. Notice how the 'wife' in their stories is always in the kitchen (where she "belongs"), only intruding on the listening room and speaking in order to confirm the 'wisdom' of her audiophile man with his 'golden ears.' Such audiophiles probably saw the movie a hundred times or more each, similar to another group whose fantasies led them to overdose on Star Wars screenings. :oops: :D
 

symphara

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They were dressed for opening night at Carnegie Hall, but that new console sounds 'better than live,' so they decided to stay home. (Imaging is rather too unfocused in the concert hall, and they can't hear the breathing of the soloist and stamping of the conductor at the podium, unlike on the new home system.)

The records on the floor are the reject pile, to be thrown away. They used to be favorite recordings, but the sound no longer pleases them now that they have sophisticated audiophile tastes thanks to the new system.

:D
I think you might be reading way too much into this :D
 

MediumRare

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I have no idea what in the measurements makes these two things happen. Having a measured flat response doesn’t seem to be it at all, based on the fact that well measuring speakers I’ve listened to cannot do this while supposedly bad speakers such as B&W 804 or Nautilus can.

PS: As of late I also like very deep bass.
I am the happy owner of a pair of the name checked 2000-era B&W 804N speakers. I can tell you the soundstage they create is striking, as is their clarity. I have had numerous people walk into the room, stop cold, and say they've never heard a stereo sound as good. (I will add I have a killer sub as well as an outstanding amp and ASR-approved DAC.)

That's true now, but even before I became familiar with their flaws - a tendency to get shrill at high volume. After hanging out here at ASR, I got familiar as well with REW and discovered how the speakers - and my room - did not originally have flat FR. The filters REW suggested, plus some manual tweaks, resulted an a pretty flat (tilted) FR, down to 20 Hz, as measured in my room. I also ended up changing the toe-in to get smoother treble above 10 kHz at the MLP.

Then, after extensive listening I found the sound a little sibilant with male voices, a little thin in the upper bass, and missing a little of the "live room" scooped character of the speakers themselves. I'm on version 6 of my filters, after making little adjustments here and there. When I A/B the difference is quite notable and the "after" is definitely preferable.

Lessons learned are summarized in my earlier post #28. Check it out.
 

Triliza

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I am trying to understand what this thread is all about, to learn a thing or two from it, and I am none the wiser. What are these colored and fun speakers some of you are talking about? According to wikipedia, "In physics, sound is a vibration that propagates as an acoustic wave, through a transmission medium such as a gas, liquid or solid". As I understand it, once sound is created by a speaker, it can be recorded and analyzed, it can be measured and interpreted. Can we please have a spinorama or whatever of these speakers?
 

MakeMineVinyl

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I am trying to understand what this thread is all about, to learn a thing or two from it, and I am none the wiser. What are these colored and fun speakers some of you are talking about? According to wikipedia, "In physics, sound is a vibration that propagates as an acoustic wave, through a transmission medium such as a gas, liquid or solid". As I understand it, once sound is created by a speaker, it can be recorded and analyzed, it can be measured and interpreted. Can we please have a spinorama or whatever of these speakers?
All speakers are 'colored' to one degree or another. I think the OP was referring to a 'colored' speaker more in an abstract sense. To me, Klipsch speakers are unacceptably colored (and I like horns). Someone else might find them completely 'neutral' depending on preferences. I don't think that many reputable speaker manufacturers have a goal to make a 'colored speaker' - they produce what they think is 'right' - that doesn't mean everybody else agrees with them.
 

Triliza

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All speakers are 'colored' to one degree or another. I think the OP was referring to a 'colored' speaker more in an abstract sense. To me, Klipsch speakers are unacceptably colored (and I like horns). Someone else might find them completely 'neutral' depending on preferences. I don't think that many reputable speaker manufacturers have a goal to make a 'colored speaker' - they produce what they think is 'right' - that doesn't mean everybody else agrees with them.

Yes, exactly. Dr. Toole/Harman idea of what a speaker should sound like is as colored as the rest of them. It just happened to be the norm in this site (and elsewhere), based on the research done. If there is a pattern at what people that don't like that norm prefer, those people should tell us what that is.

I have been around as a lurker on ASR for a year now, and prefer not to post as I don't have the knowledge to offer any insight about, well anything. But this topic about "fun" and "analytical" sound has stayed with me from many years back (well before ASR) when I bought my HD650. Many people found them back then as too "cold", and I never felt that, still use them, although I'll agree about the bass thing.
 

MattHooper

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I think she's the prototype model for The Stepford Wives.

To some, it was a cautionary tale. To audiophiles, it was escapist fantasy. After all, it was rich audiophiles who coined the passive/aggressive term "Wife Acceptance Factor," which runs counter to their own desires to take over the home. Notice how the 'wife' in their stories is always in the kitchen (where she "belongs"), only intruding on the listening room and speaking in order to confirm the 'wisdom' of her audiophile man with his 'golden ears.' Such audiophiles probably saw the movie a hundred times or more each, similar to another group whose fantasies led them to overdose on Star Wars screenings. :oops::D

Honestly I don't see that audiophiles using the WAF are all, or even mostly, of the MadMen bent you seem to ascribe.

It's a fact most audiophiles are men, and hence are more tolerant (welcoming actually) of significant audio gear taking up visual residence in a home. That's not saying male audiophiles don't care about aesthetics too - I do strongly - just that we are generally the ones wanting to place this equipment in the home.

WAF can simply be an acknowledgement of this fact and ALSO that we are NOT just bulldozing equipment in to the home without care what our spouse thinks, but understanding we share a home, need to consider our partner's reaction to gear we are going to place in our home.

That's certainly how I think of WAF.

A non-audiophile friend recently got the bug for upgrading his speakers. He and his wife listen to lots of music. Ultimately the choice of speakers and where they would be placed was highly influenced by the "WAF." He bought KEF LS50s and I brought over some speaker stands to lend him. He had the KEFS only about a foot and a half off the ground, against the wall, sitting on top of his old ratty speakers. Looked awful to my eyes and impeded the sound. But to his wife they were more "out of sight, out of mind" that way. We placed them on stands (she was away at the time) my friend said "I dunno if she'll go for these" (even though to both of us things looked far better."

Pulled the speakers a bit more out from the wall, less close to the flatscreen that was impeding the imaging. Friend said sounded great but "can guarantee my wife will have pushed the speakers back to the walls in no time."

Eventually we ended up with the best compromise of what he liked and best sound we could manage, but accommodating his wife's wishes so the speakers ended up in less than an ideal location.

But WAF was indeed a guiding factor, as it is for many such scenarios. And this was done not with some Patriarchal attitude of 'Male In Control Of The House' but rather a recognition you share the house, which includes accommodating the input and wishes of one's partner.
 

MattHooper

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Yes, exactly. Dr. Toole/Harman idea of what a speaker should sound like is as colored as the rest of them. It just happened to be the norm in this site (and elsewhere), based on the research done. If there is a pattern at what people that don't like that norm prefer, those people should tell us what that is.
.

I would quibble with that.

I believe the speakers designed via the Toole/Harman research are indeed "less colored" than plenty of other speakers. The word generally means the way a speaker audibly adds distortion to the recorded signal. Some speakers add far more "coloration" than others, and generally speaking the Harmon speakers deserve the description of being in the very low coloration category.

I personally mentioned earlier that I find all sound systems "colored" to one degree or another, but that was in my personal comparison to live music, and an observation that there is a certain level of sameness to all sound systems. But that doesn't mean that within that range, some speakers aren't more or less colored - adding distortions of their own - than others.

Basically I think we need to acknowledge where it makes sense to say "X is subjective" and where it isn't helpful to say "Ah, it's ALL subjective."
 
OP
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DanielT

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Paul above all is trying to sell his products and as such, what he says should be viewed with the same scrutiny as any other person making sales claims. There is a spectrum of sellers which range from entirely truthful to outright snake oil salesmen; Paul is somewhere in the middle with some of what he says based on solid science, and some being pure nonsense. Take what he says accordingly. ;)
Well , it sounds reasonable what you say. You have to take what Paul says with a pinch of salt then. In any case, he seems to be in itself a nice old chap. :)

Here is a report from Japan that Paul did. Nice pictures on various Hifi:

 
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DanielT

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Honestly I don't see that audiophiles using the WAF are all, or even mostly, of the MadMen bent you seem to ascribe.

It's a fact most audiophiles are men, and hence are more tolerant (welcoming actually) of significant audio gear taking up visual residence in a home. That's not saying male audiophiles don't care about aesthetics too - I do strongly - just that we are generally the ones wanting to place this equipment in the home.

WAF can simply be an acknowledgement of this fact and ALSO that we are NOT just bulldozing equipment in to the home without care what our spouse thinks, but understanding we share a home, need to consider our partner's reaction to gear we are going to place in our home.

That's certainly how I think of WAF.

A non-audiophile friend recently got the bug for upgrading his speakers. He and his wife listen to lots of music. Ultimately the choice of speakers and where they would be placed was highly influenced by the "WAF." He bought KEF LS50s and I brought over some speaker stands to lend him. He had the KEFS only about a foot and a half off the ground, against the wall, sitting on top of his old ratty speakers. Looked awful to my eyes and impeded the sound. But to his wife they were more "out of sight, out of mind" that way. We placed them on stands (she was away at the time) my friend said "I dunno if she'll go for these" (even though to both of us things looked far better."

Pulled the speakers a bit more out from the wall, less close to the flatscreen that was impeding the imaging. Friend said sounded great but "can guarantee my wife will have pushed the speakers back to the walls in no time."

Eventually we ended up with the best compromise of what he liked and best sound we could manage, but accommodating his wife's wishes so the speakers ended up in less than an ideal location.

But WAF was indeed a guiding factor, as it is for many such scenarios. And this was done not with some Patriarchal attitude of 'Male In Control Of The House' but rather a recognition you share the house, which includes accommodating the input and wishes of one's partner.
Helped a neighbor in the summer cottage area this summer. That with some tips regarding hifi. A couple and they would install sound in the cottage. Let's say this. It was not a question of WAF. WTF factor applied. Wife Tells (how it should be) Factor.
As for the decor of their little cottage. An old cottage so in the end they went vintage, mostly for the sake of appearance. They are now borrowing my receiver Harman Kardon 330 C (which I bought this spring at a flea market). It sounds decent and has that vintage look that his wife likes.:)

Speakers they bought, old vintage with new tweeters. Not the ones in the picture but the model, OA 12. Made by Stig Carlsson.
https://teenage.engineering/products/od-11/carlssonstory

When I used A can of compressed air,to blow away dust, I also some pictures of the HK.
 

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JJB70

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How much does it really matter?

This may sound like a wilfully contrarian and provocative statement on an audio forum, but I really don't think gear matters that much when it comes to just enjoying music.

I have my preferences (I love my Etymotic ER4SR) and like audio gear, but in all honesty if it is music I love I can listen and enjoy using just about any gear.

Most of the music I listen to is classical and I don't really like bass heavy tuning (though I do like a bass kick for rock music etc) but I can listen to my favourite orchestral or chamber music on bass canons and enjoy it without getting distracted by the gear after an initial adjustment in my perception.
 
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DanielT

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HB
How much does it really matter?

This may sound like a wilfully contrarian and provocative statement on an audio forum, but I really don't think gear matters that much when it comes to just enjoying music.

I have my preferences (I love my Etymotic ER4SR) and like audio gear, but in all honesty if it is music I love I can listen and enjoy using just about any gear.

Most of the music I listen to is classical and I don't really like bass heavy tuning (though I do like a bass kick for rock music etc) but I can listen to my favourite orchestral or chamber music on bass canons and enjoy it without getting distracted by the gear after an initial adjustment in my perception.
Well, HiFi and sound is a hobby. Some audiophileo do not care a whit about the equipment's appearance or technology and or how it works with acoustics and sound reproduction.They are just interested in listening to music and want it to sound really good
Others barely listen to music and read most wiring diagrams, check where to order capacitors, who think that the best scent is the one that comes from the soldering iron.:)

Some focus on the subjective, others are based solely on objectively technically measurable data.

Let a thousand flowers bloom.:D

.... Then we have the large masses who listen to music that does not care a shit about one or the other mentioned above. They plug in their bluethoot. Connection and see there will be sound and thus it was solved.
 

ThoFi

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I am listening to The Beatles now for several hours.
So pleasant, engaging with my colored tube amp.
I wasnt able to do longer listening sessions with my Hypex Class D amp.
 
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MattHooper

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Have you thought about getting a turntable, vinyl replay is a wonderful opportunity to introduce even more distortion.
Keith

Seconded. I was just luxuriating in the combo. Works like a charm :)
 
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DanielT

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Have you thought about getting a turntable, vinyl replay is a wonderful opportunity to introduce even more distortion.
Keith
In that case, go big and all in.o_O ..:)

Although you can have as a hobby vintage cars from the same time period, so why not ...:)

 

MattHooper

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In that case, go big and all in.o_O ..:)

Although you can have as a hobby vintage cars from the same time period, so why not ...:)


I wonder how good they ever got one of those to sound. In other words, before they went out of style, what did the pinnacle of gramophone technology sound like?

I've never heard one.
 
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