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symphara

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"...these measurements just aren't that useful, because they don't correlate with how I perceive a speaker..."

This measuerments correlate to 80% of the people. Not to you, no problem.
Take the measurements, and look for deviations that you enjoy more, lets say 5db up at 1kHz.
I don't think it's as simple as that. To put it bluntly, I regard these measurements as some type of chemical composition of a dish, which I see as somewhat informative but you think is supposed to tell me how good it tastes. What you're saying is "just adjust your preference of Flavan-3-ols by 10% up, and you'll like it". It's nonsense.

Plus, the number one reason why the measurements aren't that useful is because they apply to extremely few speakers. It would be folly to ignore the others just because they haven't been measured here.
 

tomtoo

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I don't think it's as simple as that. To put it bluntly, I regard these measurements as some type of chemical composition of a dish, which I see as somewhat informative but you think is supposed to tell me how good it tastes. What you're saying is "just adjust your preference of Flavan-3-ols by 10% up, and you'll like it". It's nonsense.

Plus, the number one reason why the measurements aren't that useful is because they apply to extremely few speakers. It would be folly to ignore the others just because they haven't been measured here.

You see 80% on the table say, after the measurements recipe I like it. It cant tell what you like. If you like more carolina reaper in your dish, enjoy it. What do you want? That everyone has your taste?
 

ThoFi

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"...these measurements just aren't that useful, because they don't correlate with how I perceive a speaker..."

This measuerments correlate to 80% of the people. Not to you, no problem.
Take the measurements, and look for deviations that you enjoy more, lets say 5db up at 1kHz.

where are the 80% come from?
how many studies has been done?
 

symphara

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What do you want? That everyone has your taste?
Not at all, I genuinely don't care about your taste and this is not meant to be offensive in any way. I am in no way trying to convert you to my way of thinking. At this stage I'm fending off various accusations.

Again:

1. I tried, cash in hand, searching for speakers based on measurements (particularly flat response and good directivity). The well-measuring ones are not to my taste, unfortunately. They sound competent but dull. They were very far from thrilling or conveying some emotion.
2. This might not be your experience, perhaps your taste correlates perfectly to the measurements. That's fine. I would just add: be mindful not to restrict your search too much. After all, I think only 8 towers have been reviewed here. There's a lot more stuff out there.
3. The most important thing - in my opinion - one can do is have a home demo, if at all possible.
 

ThoFi

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I know only the harman studies.
If you have better i would enjoy.

Saying 80% prefer neutrality:
Refer to one or two studies is not very valid. Way too less for any statistics!

For statistic of preferred personal taste, it would be better to have a look at the real sales numbers.
 

tomtoo

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Not at all, I genuinely don't care about your taste and this is not meant to be offensive in any way. I am in no way trying to convert you to my way of thinking. At this stage I'm fending off various accusations.

Again:

1. I tried, cash in hand, searching for speakers based on measurements (particularly flat response and good directivity). The well-measuring ones are not to my taste, unfortunately. They sound competent but dull. They were very far from thrilling or conveying some emotion.
2. This might not be your experience, perhaps your taste correlates perfectly to the measurements. That's fine. I would just add: be mindful not to restrict your search too much. After all, I think only 8 towers have been reviewed here. There's a lot more stuff out there.
3. The most important thing - in my opinion - one can do is have a home demo, if at all possible.

1) You see you get experience. If they sound dull, you usually enjoy more highs. Ever tested some Klipsch?

3) Absolutly signed!

2) See, the measurements tell somhow if a speaker is well engineered. They cant tell what you like. And no my taste not always correlates to the other 80%. But with the measurements you can learn where i differ. If there is a 18khz bump of 5db, Q2 on a speaker. I dont give a sh** even it influence preference score. I cant hear it.
Its all a orientation if you can read the data. Not a this you have to enjoy.
 

tomtoo

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Saying 80% prefer neutrality:
Refer to one or two studies is not very valid. Way too less for any statistics!

For statistic of preferred personal taste, it would be better to have a look at the real sales numbers.


You joke? I would always prefer a good measuring genelec with low sales numbers over a bad measuring bose with high sales numbers. Ok its my preference.
 

ThoFi

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You joke? I would always prefer a good measuring genelec with low sales numbers over a bad measuring bose with high sales numbers. Ok its my preference.

I see. You do not understand.
 
OP
DanielT

DanielT

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What does Paul mean when he 4:20 in the video says that even if amplifiers measure the same, they sound different? He does not talk as much about distortion as he talks about sound signature. By the way if a sound signatur exists, is it not a distortion and or a deviation from the frequency curve? That what I can interpret from what has emerged, has been said, in this thread anyway.

What, Que? Have I missed something now? That is, I thought that if two different amplifiers measure the same (on all parameters that you can measure that you know can affect the performance) they sounds the same. Or? I'm puzzled and confused about what Paul's saying.

 
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tomtoo

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What does Paul mean when he 4:20 in the video says that even if amplifiers measure the same, they sound different? He does not talk as much about distortion as he talks about sound signature. By the way if a sound signaturex exists, is it not a distortion and or a deviation from the frequency curve? That what I can interpret from what has emerged, has been said, in this thread anyway.

What, Que? Have I missed something now? That is, I thought that if you measure the same, then on all parameters that you can measure that you know can affect the performance, it sounds the same. Or? I'm puzzled and confused about what Paul's saying.


No prob, paul is often confusing. I think he would even confuse scientists.
 

symphara

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1) You see you get experience. If they sound dull, you usually enjoy more highs. Ever tested some Klipsch?
No, I’ve never even seen Klipsch in reality, just on the net. I don’t believe they’re as popular in Europe as in the US. But - I’m sorry to say this - I’d never consider them based on looks alone.

I don’t think I particularly enjoy more heights. What I look for is a speaker’s ability to realistically simulate instruments (and to a lesser extent voices). Second thing, is the ability to fake the reality that I’m listening to two boxes making sound.

I have no idea what in the measurements makes these two things happen. Having a measured flat response doesn’t seem to be it at all, based on the fact that well measuring speakers I’ve listened to cannot do this while supposedly bad speakers such as B&W 804 or Nautilus can.

PS: As of late I also like very deep bass.
 

tomtoo

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No, I’ve never even seen Klipsch in reality, just on the net. I don’t believe they’re as popular in Europe as in the US. But - I’m sorry to say this - I’d never consider them based on looks alone.

I don’t think I particularly enjoy more heights. What I look for is a speaker’s ability to realistically simulate instruments (and to a lesser extent voices). Second thing, is the ability to fake the reality that I’m listening to two boxes making sound.

I have no idea what in the measurements makes these two things happen. Having a measured flat response doesn’t seem to be it at all, based on the fact that well measuring speakers I’ve listened to cannot do this while supposedly bad speakers such as B&W 804 or Nautilus can.

PS: As of late I also like very deep bass.

Looks like we have something in common.
I listend to some horn speakers, and i realy thought this sax is in the room.
Hard to explain.
Its more to find some commen measurements. Do i think the spinnorama descripes all? No. But a lot, so if people like to criticize, they should come up with better parameters.
 

ThoFi

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Maybe you could explain, what you see that i dont understand?

The real sales show the diversity of taste/personal preferences.
You can not say 80% prefer xy out of a few studies.
Personal taste is more complex.
 

tomtoo

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The real sales show the diversity of taste/personal preferences.
You can not say 80% prefer xy out of a few studies.
Personal taste is more complex.

You are again joking? Do the real sales of ciggaretes tell you how healthy they are?
 

Hugo9000

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View attachment 152926

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Also, in an advertisement for high fidelity sound, you gotta love the couple sitting with open records spilled on to the floor. :)
They were dressed for opening night at Carnegie Hall, but that new console sounds 'better than live,' so they decided to stay home. (Imaging is rather too unfocused in the concert hall, and they can't hear the breathing of the soloist and stamping of the conductor at the podium, unlike on the new home system.)

The records on the floor are the reject pile, to be thrown away. They used to be favorite recordings, but the sound no longer pleases them now that they have sophisticated audiophile tastes thanks to the new system.

:D
 
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