Bryston do as well.
No shortage of dynamic power there.
No shortage of dynamic power there.
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Thanks for the additional info. OK, we have two! Have to say I'm not familiar with ATI and have also never considered a Bryston amp, so that explains my ignorance about those items. I'm sure there are more, but non-SMP supplies for class D amps are still a bit on the less-common side of things.
dougi
Addicted to Fun and Learning
I used to have a TacT/Lyngdorf SDA 2175 class D. It too had a linear supply:
I have ran an AHB2 with a pair of Cornwall IVs for four years and recently did in-home demos with a Fezz Titania and a McIntosh MA352. To my ear both the McIntosh and the Fezz offered noticeably more engaging and non-fatiguing sound than the AHB2, despite the AHB2 having impeccable measured performance. I used the same Benchmark DAC3 for all comparisons. Between the MA352 and the Fezz, I preferred the McIntosh because of its bass grip and slam. Soundstage on both demo amps was superb. I'm going to do an in-home demo with the Accuphase E-3000 next. I'm not saying that you always get more by paying more, but I am saying that just because an amp has objectively better measurements does not necessarily mean that it's going to sound "better" in your system and in your listening environment.
Svend P
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Looks like we have another stray. All amplifiers sound the same. If you didn't test level matched and blind, none of your observations have any value.
Yes, to be fair to you and not just pounce hard, as the previous member critiqued your assertion, you must level match very closely and compare blind. That is an absolute must.
As stated, sighted listening comparisons, especially without level matching are just not useful. Fun probably, but not useful.
Dont know how good it is. But for me its a iconic pice of hifi jewelery a kind of industrial art. Something that should have a place in a techart museum. Iam not a art guy more the tech person but this i want to look at and thouch it. 
I'd disagree slightly. While such an opinion is worthless from an objective scientific view point, it is still useful for the individual. He is the one who has to look at and live with the device day after day. So if its appearance, brand name, reputation and whatever other subjective factors swimming around in his head influence his perception of the sound quality, so be it. Enjoy! He just can't expect his perception to be present for anyone else. That latter point is where most subjectivists fail -- they treat their personal perception as a scientific fact that should be obvious to the rest of the world.
This is how highend audio works.
Thanks for the warm welcome to this board. I acknowledge the value of blind listening... few people do that kind of testing and fewer still do it properly. On the other hand, I've listened to too many different amplifiers to concur with your "all amplifiers sound the same" sentiment. Perhaps it's accurate to say that they all should sound the same, but they don't.
Should be fun to do a sighted test with different looking boxes containing the same amp with a slightly diffenrent volume.
Or just pretending to switch while listening to the same amp over and over again.
No. Only that class D are smaller and lighter. They have their own caveats.
The Accuphase amplifiers are excellent but you are paying a premium for the brand (think about a luxury sweater or t-shirt) and the Japanese manufacturing.
If you look at something like the SONCONZ SGP1, it’s great until it breaks. That’s one reason more premium products like the Benchmark AHB2, McIntosh, or Accuphase stuff works. In fact, if you look at the difference between Marantz PM-10 and Model 10 versus a HypeX or Purifi “equivalent” you will see that Marantz puts more speaker protection circuitry around the amplification. These adds costs, along with the brand and aesthetics.
Last, people are human.
A and B are the same color. This is the equivalent of “blind testing” audio and saying two things are indistinguishable.
The pure objectivist will say that A and B are identical. He is not wrong, but it ignores the reality of human perception that A and B look different. This is the reality that amplifiers can sound different, and that difference can be consistent from time to time. A always looks darker than B.
The pure subjectivist will say that A and B have magical, unmeasurable qualities for why they appear different. In this case, he is somewhat wrong. You very much can measure things. In this case, it’s the objective surroundings around the square. In the case of audio, this is the appearance/brand.
The enlightened audiophile recognizes that human perception is not a “flaw or a bug” but a “feature” and finds joy by combining good technical measurements along with the sighted bias in favor of enhancing the emotional and psychoacoustic perception when listening.
I call it enlightened but others will call it foolish. It’s also tricky because there is indeed snake oil in the audio hobby. On the other hand, I believe I enjoy the hobby more by leveraging sighted bias as a boost to my experience of music and movies.
Edit: the bar graph is for the E-5000. They don’t provide the same data for the E-3000 but we can look at published specs
Compared to the E-5000
So the E-3000 is a step down in performance, although still inaudible.
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Specifically?
Sighted bias can still be a good and valid reason to buy a more expensive product for individuals because the perception of audio is indeed different.
in reference to this part of the post
“He just can't expect his perception to be present for anyone else. That latter point is where most subjectivists fail -- they treat their personal perception as a scientific fact that should be obvious to the rest of the world.”
Or my example with the optical illusion. Is A and B identical in measurement? Yes. Are they perceived as identical? Maybe for some? If you are buying land in A vs. B to build a home, and you want a lighter or darker appearing ground, you may pick one over the other even at added expense, despite actual measurements.
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Ah, welcome to ASR, my son. I see that wisdom has been chasing you, but you have always been faster. No matter, we of the illuminati are going to slow you down so that Wisdom may catch up and shower you with true knowledge and understanding of this amazing hobby. Namiste!!
DVDdoug
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But when you start making claims about the sound you're going to get challenged here. Especially if you use undefined and unmeasurable vague "audiophile terminology", or if you ascribe characteristics like "soundstage" to an amplifier which is not normally related to amplifier performance (at least not with some other defect like channel imbalance or an abnormal amount of crosstalk.)
If somebody says something more specific and understandable like, "there was a buzz in the left speaker", or "there was no bass", probably nobody is going to complain about non-controlled listening tests.
Exactly what do "engaging" and "non-fatiguing" mean?
I'm thinking they're meaningless, but I'm open to persuasion.
I'm thinking they're meaningless, but I'm open to persuasion.
What about the perspective of
“Hey, when I level match but have sighted view of the speakers, I am able to better hear the details and enjoy the music”
If my perception is biased by my view of the speakers, is that bias happening in my perception of sound? Or perception of enjoyment? Or where is that bias applying its effect? If my perception of sound is indeed different, then it is different?
Suppose you had a great Topping PA5 which sounds great and this Accuphase amp, which also sounds great. We can say that within the power envelope, the differences will be inaudible.
But knowing that your PA5 might fail each time you power it on might add a fraction of mental overhead. Could that worry or anxiety be seen on fMRI and does that impact
your ability to sit back and relax and enjoy the music?
Is there an element of FOMO when going with a less known brand versus a “gold standard?”
So in a way, just telling someone that it measures the same doesn’t also mean that it sounds the same to that person. It’s not a hallucination — it’s just how they perceive things. It’s the whole hand in cold ice water trick when you are smiling and not…. The pain perception and modulation are real.
What I do not know yet, and it’s something that this group could figure out if it ever wanted to, would be to figure out of the sighted bias is consistent in vector or random.
How interesting would it be if sighted bias is like that optical illusion where it’s consistent across a diverse population?
No matter how I try, I cannot see those two squares as being the same color when sitting back and looking at it. I have to stare, block out neighboring portions of the image, etc. No matter how hard I try, two identically measuring amplifiers can still sound different with visually seeing them.
It’s good to challenge snake oil, but remember, Dr. Toole’s research can also provide strong scientific support for the conclusion that “speakers of a certain look” have high consumer listener preferences despite poor performance when blinded.
If I don’t spend the engineering to make my speakers flat with great directivity, maybe I can make them look really cool and listeners, in sighted conditions, would give it an preference score equal to the better speaker… all supported by rigorous science.
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