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Abyss Diana V2 Review (headphone)

solderdude

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You mean the difference in distortion is solely due to different FR? I might be misinterpreting your comment

yes, for HE650 measurement you should also show the dB plot. Percentages can be misleading when the reference for the percentage is differing.

I had wondered a few times why THD measurements showed high levels of distortion that were not audible. It was because there was a massive dip at that frequency making it appear as though distortion is high in % but not high in actual level as can be seen on the THD in dB plots.

K92 distortion in dB: (brown trace is FR and yes it really is that bad :)) 90dB SPL at 400Hz.
DIST K92 R.png


and below in %
DIST K92 R percent.png

High numbers in % but low in actual level. This is due to the dip in the FR making it appear as though distortion numbers are high where in reality they may be much lower.
 

3125b

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Can't we all agree on the fact that, for a 3000$ headphone, it's pretty bad any way you look at it?
Abyss should go back to the drawing board instead of wasting time ... discussing the results.
 

Chocomel

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yes, for HE650 measurement you should also show the dB plot. Percentages can be misleading when the reference for the percentage is differing.

I had wondered a few times why THD measurements showed high levels of distortion that were not audible. It was because there was a massive dip at that frequency making it appear as though distortion is high in % but not high in actual level as can be seen on the THD in dB plots.

K92 distortion in dB: (brown trace is FR and yes it really is that bad :)) 90dB SPL at 400Hz.
View attachment 106631

and below in %
View attachment 106632
High numbers in % but low in actual level. This is due to the dip in the FR making it appear as though distortion numbers are high where in reality they may be much lower.

The THD difference is mainly due to the loss of seal, the increase is a lot higher than a simple output change, but yeah it's good to consider the whole response rather than a single graph in vacuum. Here are the absolute values in case you are interested.
1.jpg
2.jpg
3.jpg
 

the_brunx

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Its funny how some people turn around and use a known seal flaw with this headphones to try and now discredit measurements with it. Every single person who has reviewed this headphone even on abyss sponsered headfi.
has reported a problem with fitting. If it’s present with everyone and supposedly it’s present in measurements. Then I don’t see the problem. The measurements are just reflecting how people will hear it.

even on headfi where they are sponsered by abyss every single reviewer has reported a fitting problem as a CON for the headphones.

Here‘s the link:

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/abyss-headphones-diana.22827/reviews

The measurement test shouldn’t bend over backwards to try and make the headphones measure like something they won’t sound like.
And even when they do bend over backwards we have seen they still measure poorly.
 
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Qna89

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Its funny how people turn around and use a known seal flaw with this headphones to try and now discredit measurements with it. Every single person who has reviewed this headphone even on abyss sponsered headfi.
has reported a problem with fitting. If it’s present with everyone and supposedly it’s present in measurements. Then I don’t see the problem. The measurements are just reflecting how people will hear it.

even on headfi where they are sponsered by abyss every single reviewer has reported a fitting problem as a CON for the headphones.

Here‘s the link:

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/abyss-headphones-diana.22827/reviews

The measurement test shouldn’t bend over backwards to try and make the headphones measure like something they won’t sound like.

sooo If everyone has problem with proper seal and this causes rly strong issues with FR and THD maybe... just maybe... they are badlyy designed?
 

Tachyon88

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@Francis Vaughan "I can’t say they are on my Christmas wish list." January and already making lists ! ;)

I have zero issues with fit, I think they're comfortable and I get a seal WITH glasses.....again, these pads are soft. The DMS pads are even softer since they take some of the padding out.

They responded again, didn't say anything new.....at this point they should contact Dan or Zach and ask for consultation. SMH.:facepalm:
 
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amirm

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Could the unit you have be a dud or because Abyss doesn't particularly care about measurements there's quite a large amount of unit variation?
Since Jude's measurements mostly matched mine, and presumably he was given a hand-picked unit, we can say that unit to unit variation is not a problem. They seem to uniformly suffer from these problems based on the information we have. Of course they could conduct more tests of their own and show different outcome but doesn't look like any is coming. They seem perfectly fine with Jude's measurements which both shows lack of low bass response and high distortion.
 
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amirm

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i compared/overlaid jude's and amir's Measurements here in case people are interested in a more direct comparison.
Thanks. I have to keep repeating that at the outset I mentioned I could get different response with positioning. So that should have never been the concern. I chose to use the measurement that best correlated with my what I was hearing and equalization effect. That it had rolled off lows was confirmed using listening tests. How much it was rolled off is never accurate and hence my eyeballing of the compensation in bass.

On distortion, I should note that just because Jude says he has the 45CA, it doesn't mean he has the same setup as I. 45CA is just name of the physical fixture. You can get different couplers (microphones) and artificial ears for the unit. I have lost track of what Jude has in those regards. I have however documented what I have: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../asr-getting-into-measuring-headphones.18086/

Anyway, getting correct distortion measurements involve good bit of "art." I have optimized a ton of detail here from sweep time, resolution and averaging. Slight changes to these will vary measurement by good bit. I can move the needle up and down good 1 or 2% in bass by just changing these parameters. Jude is definitely using different parameters here and I don't think he has spent any time optimizing them. My optimizations have reduced variations in measurements but are no cure.

The best way to use the distortion measurements then is to compare one headphone to another using my measurements. Then the contrast can be relied upon. And look at order magnitude. Here is Abyss Diana V2 again:

index.php


Now HEDD HEDDphone:

index.php


It should be abundantly clear that the bass distortion in much higher in Diana 2.

Here is NAD HP50:

index.php


Clearly the NAD generates far less distortion than Abyss Diana V2. Arguments about fit, etc. are all minutia.

What Abyss needs to know that this library of measurements will grow quickly. They better go back and measure distortion the way I am doing it where problems are quite visible. And data exists about their competitors. I am sure they could fix a lot of these problems once they measure them and can then optimize. They are driving blind right now, using their unreliable ears as distortion detectors. Use instrumentation. This is what they are great about. Don't worry about small variations. Focus on the big picture.
 
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amirm

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The ones Amir usually shows are linear, the ones most others produce are log type scale.
I provide both. Here is the log display:
index.php


The vertical axis is in dB which is naturally a log scale.

I do NOT use log display in percentage distortion graphs because I find that it hides problems. Look at how easily you can interpret my graphs compared to what Jude has published. I am able to show three different levels simultaneously on one graph yet the clarity is still here to understand how distortion scales with level:

index.php


These are the standard schemes that Klippel uses for their speaker measurements. I have presented this across some 120+ speaker measurements so I just replicated them here for headphones. It is not some scheme I cooked up. They have worked very nicely for speaker tests so it made sense to use them with headphones as well.
 

xup

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I think Abyss actually added something very important in their last response. They added that they measure their headphones while designing and every pair in QC. I don't think that was clear before. In that case, I think they could have released the measurements of the specific pair or start a conversation.

Joe Skubinski:
"We have years of experience measuring our headphones, we've literally done tens of thousands of measurements. We measure on a daily basis as headphones go through QC, we measure when prototyping, R&D, etc. Let's just say we know our measurements."

The post is rather long, I'll link if anyone wants to read the rest: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dia...byss-headphones.777618/page-229#post-16112387
 

Dealux

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I think Abyss actually added something very important in their last response. They added that they measure their headphones while designing and every pair in QC. I don't think that was clear before. In that case, I think they could have released the measurements of the specific pair or start a conversation.

Joe Skubinski:
"We have years of experience measuring our headphones, we've literally done tens of thousands of measurements. We measure on a daily basis as headphones go through QC, we measure when prototyping, R&D, etc. Let's just say we know our measurements."

The post is rather long, I'll link if anyone wants to read the rest: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dia...byss-headphones.777618/page-229#post-16112387
They don't have a proper HATS rig though. They're using that cheaper Neumann thing that nobody thinks is accurate. They also said on record (or rather in their "Abyss house sound" video) that they tune things by ear and don't rely on measurements.
 
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amirm

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Fascinating post from them, putting their head in the sand that Jude's measurements conveyed exactly as my results. Then they go and say this:

1610920263059.png


Biased intent? No, I used subjective listening to pick the *best* frequency response to present that correlated with what I heard. If I had not done that, then I would have declared that the headphone was hopeless in equalization, thereby damning it even more.

Here is what I said in the review:

1610920453579.png


I couldn't be more clear on what I had done. And how I tried to advantage the headphone by measuring over and over again until EQ results confirmed which set of measurements were correct. I specifically created equalization that improved the performance of their headphone. Why would I do that if I wanted to make them look bad?

Here is what I said:
1610920905383.png


They are going to learn the hard way that such accusations don't stick because they are not true. I have no allegiance to any company or brand. Provide good engineering and great sound and you get my praise. Do the opposite and you will not.

They started the post by saying:

1610920566631.png


First let's dismiss the obfuscation: measurement in a factory for pass and fail has nothing to do with what we are doing here and performance of the headphone. So let's not exaggerate so clearly about how many measurements they have made.

They need to be saying how many measurements they made designing and verifying proper engineering of the product. Sadly they are careful to avoid saying this. I don't doubt that they did some measurements. But clearly they did not have proper targets for distortion, bass response, etc. or we would not be here where even Jude's tests show the problems. Indeed in their videos say they have a hard time figuring out what the measurements do relative to what they were hearing. They gave up too early on benefits of measurements in my opinion.

Bottom line is this: if they had measurements, then they should have post them by now. It is clear that they either don't have any measurements or said measurements don't paint a good picture of their headphone. Everything else is just noise. And uncalled for personal accusations.
 

imagidominc

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Amir: *actually provides measurements*
Abyss: Trust us, you don't need to see the measurements ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
 

roz

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They don't have a proper HATS rig though. They're using that cheaper Neumann thing that nobody thinks is accurate. They also said on record (or rather in their "Abyss house sound" video) that they tune things by ear and don't rely on measurements.
Curious... If they tune things by ear, would it mean that there would be variation between each headphones? The QC tester could have different "tastes" on specific days.
 
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amirm

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They now post this:

1610926886469.png


Jude is into measurements big time? If so, how come he had not measured this headphone before and waited to do it now?

As best I can tell, measurement equipment are bought to say they have it, not to use it to get anything accomplished. Back in July of last year Jude announced having the B&K 51128 Hats. There, he promised more than the one two measurements he showed there:

1610927048435.png


It is now 6+ months later and a new year. Yet there is no "Part 2." There are no more measurements. Indeed seems like we were the forcing function for him to dust off the 5128 and use it to measure something!

Jude is in the promotional video for the B&K 5128. It is a very well done video. But as I said to B&K, he is just using measurement gear as decoration and window dressing to keep people from going elsewhere to read about headphones. I have done more measurements with my gear in one month than probably the entire last year on his side.

So no, Jude is not "into measurements." Nor does he have a brand and business model that would benefit such. Look at what my one set of measurements did. Can you imagine if he had measured this headphone first and objectively analyzed how bad it was? What would happen to said sponsorship?

Anyway, good to see that Abyss is now "making inquiries about same [measurement system]." That is worth a lot that the company is now woken up and is looking at objective measurements properly.
 

Merkurio

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Jude is in the promotional video for the B&K 5128. It is a very well done video. But as I said to B&K, he is just using measurement gear as decoration and window dressing to keep people from going elsewhere to read about headphones. I have done more measurements with my gear in one month than probably the entire last year on his side.

Buy his B&K 5128. :p
 

the_brunx

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but its sad to know that the headphone and snake oil cable manufacturer which even some shady reviewers have hyped to be the best sounding in the world didn't even have a proper measuring rig. and now the diana is exposed as having lots of distortion. I am losing all faith in subjective reviews. they can hype anything as high-fidelity and people will fall for it, so embarrassing.
 
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pwjazz

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I am losing all faith in subjective reviews

FWIW I don't mind subjective reviews at the level of "I enjoyed listening to X song with Y equipment" or even stuff like "this sounds bassy and has shouty vocals on X recording". Where they fall down for me is when people start talking about stuff like detail or fast bass or transient response or whatever. I think in the case of this Abyss headphone, the cognitive dissonance comes mostly from subjective reviews claiming that it sounds very "detailed" or has "technicalities" befitting its price, and then it turns out to measure with a ton of distortion in the all important midrange of all places.
 
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