Abyss AB-1266 Phi TC Review (Headphone)

[MDT]

I would say this isn't true for products on the cheaper end. Under 1k you mostly get what you pay for, but what you pay for might be better build, or better style, or better SQ.
That said, 1k+ headphones still have to hold their value and make you feel the money was well-spent. Abyss has evidently achieved that with the build quality and an imperfect yet competent sound.

However I think once you get up to that price you're in delusional territory. The figure is so ridiculous that I can't imagine my inhibitions wouldn't be suppressed just to hit the "buy" button.
This is all speculative of course. I don't own any kilobuck headphones.

It may be true at the very low end that you could expect quality to not be stellar, but I'd like to see evidence that a $1k+ headphone performs that much more than a $200 headphone as a general rule.

We see this in headphone amps and DACs. The component materials are so cheap, and the semiconductors are of a high enough quality that you don't need to pay over the odds and in general, price should really only scale with the number of components. Add in a style/brand tax and that's your asking price.

For headphones, if a particular transducer, as an example, was more costly to manufacture but had better frequency response and lower distortion, that would be a justification for higher price. So would using lighter but more durable materials, better warranty support etc. When it comes to these so called "high-end" products, I'm still not seeing what justifies the price, other than relying on the "price=quality" belief.

Are there any super expensive headphones that are widely considered to be junk?

 

[WickedInsignia]

I'm still not seeing what justifies the price, other than relying on the "price=quality" belief.

Design, manufacture and marketing my good lad!
Plenty of things are built from simple and cheap components, but the R&D cost is generally under-appreciated.
An iPhone costs ~$400 in components for example, but it’s ridiculous to suggest that’s what it should cost the consumer.

Beyond labour costs, design teams must be paid and marketing can be immense (in many cases, half of a live-action film’s cost can be marketing alone for example!)
Add to that the cost of components if they’re not re-used from another model (which companies like Sennheiser, Sony etc. have the luxury of).

Then you have to weigh up supply/demand. Abyss hand-builds their headphones in the US and they’re most likely selling few units to a very specific crowd. They have to make a large return on their sales. Their marketing and designs costs aren’t offset by mass sales like you’d find in the mainstream brands.

The pricetag is exorbitant but not entirely unjustified. This is of course an educated guess at best…I don’t work in the audio product pipeline.
Cables are a completely different story too.

 

[solderdude]

Are there any super expensive headphones that are widely considered to be junk?

The question is who consideres certain headphones junk and for what reason(s).

 

[aldarrin]

I've found the law of diminishing returns kicks in pretty hard around $300 for headphones. You can get more, but the benefits are smaller and the cost way, way more. I'm not sure how to measure things like detail retrieval, imaging, instrument separation, or sound stage, but these are the things that supposedly get better with higher tier gear. Below is a rough progression from cheap to kilobuck:

Koss KPH30i: music is pleasant, no subbass, not great details but still enjoyable. Not a great build quality, but amazing for the buck.
Beyerdynamic DT880: music is pleasant, extremely comfortable, treble murders small children, better but still not great at detail
Argon Mk3: music is amazing, parts of the FR spectrum are gone, sound comes across more like speakers in a room than headphones, ears get hot
HD6XX: music is amazing, headphones will try to squeeze you to death, details aren't great
Sundara: music is amazing, good details, sounds like very good headphones, bit of EQ and you're golden (but it'll never sound like a dynamic driver headphone, for whatever reason)
Koss 95x: music is good, details abound, but sound comes across as hazy, clearly whatever they did to avoid electric whining doesn't work (mine are tinnitus simulators), easily the worst build quality I've seen, looks bad
Clear MG: music is good, pleasant bass (be happy with its bass, you can damage them if you EQ the bass), some issues with FR needs EQ, kinda heavy, sounds more like speakers in a room than headphones (but they are heavy enough that you won't be fooled), feels premium
HD800s: these things are amazing. Incredible engineering to precisely manufacture a headphone for a target that very few people actually like (they are really well made, but the stock tune is just weird). Also, they are so light with so little clamp that they'll fly off your head if you're not careful. I put Dekoni hybrid pads on them, EQ'd them, and love them to bits (wearing them now).
Arya: sounds like speakers in the room, sounds ok stock, sound better with EQ. Only thing I really did was replace the wire (I use Hart modular cables for convenience)
L700: sounds like speakers in the room, sounds weird stock, sounds great with EQ (and blue tack mod for better seal), comically cheap feeling, incredibly ugly

You could argue that all of these headphones are "junk" because they have shortfalls. I personally like all of them for their respective strengths (except the 95X, those are fully redundant given the L700).

 

[MDT]

Design, manufacture and marketing my good lad!
Plenty of things are built from simple and cheap components, but the R&D cost is generally under-appreciated.
An iPhone costs ~$400 in components for example, but it’s ridiculous to suggest that’s what it should cost the consumer.

Let's not kid ourselves here. Apple sell enough iPhones that the R&D and marketing cost, per phone, is a small fraction compared to component costs. You're paying for the brand here.

For Abyss, I'd like to see what their costs are. Given their cable business, I wouldn't be surprised to find that they are priced along a similar philosophy (if the headphones were cheaper to build, how would they justify selling $800 headphones when they sell $3k cables )

 

[MDT]

The question is who consideres certain headphones junk and for what reason(s).

The same people who express any subjective opinion on headphones and usually along the same lines that they praise some headphones, but in the negative.

What I'd really be interested in, is a large scale study where headphone fans/hobbyists have to give their impressions of headphones without knowing what the headphone is.

I truly believe that if reviewers (the ones who just give subjective impressions) didn't know the brand/model or price of the headphones they reviewed, we'd see very different reviews, particularly for the "high-end".

 

[Cahudson42]

truly believe that if reviewers (the ones who just give subjective impressions) didn't know the brand/model or price of the headphones they reviewed, we'd see very different reviews, particularly for the "high-end".

May have missed it, but another factor effecting hi-end low volume HP is.. 'Made by hand'...Anyone involved in Manufacturing knows this is a Red Flag for variability and inconsistency.

Low volume guys can likely only afford simple assist fixturing on assy. HFM HE400se driver assy are likely fully automated - consistent, and identical.

And while hi volume HP may suffer from the ills of 'value Engineering' (ferrite magnets HFM?) they won't as much from unit to unit variation..

 

[max233]

It's surprisingly easy to acclimate to weird FRs if you're not constantly swapping headphones. I find most reviewers tend to understate problems, possibly either to avoid offending people who get overly emotional about their purchases (a majority of audiophiles) or because they're deaf.

That explains why I actually like Grados

 

[max233]

How many of these do you think they sell? In the tens? Hundreds? Or more? Anyone care to guess?

 

[Cahudson42]

Well, we could start with Revenue per employee. Years ago I was taught it must be $100k per. 10 employees, $1m..you might keep afloat..

So, let's say it's that. Next, the wholesale for the $5k HP. Say $1k.

So a 'rock bottom' size boutique High End HP, with $1m in Sales, might turn out at most 1000/yr, say 100/ month, 4 or so a day. With 10 total employees. say 4 in Manufacturing.. At most..As Direct sales realize more than $1k each..

My guess - 100/mo.. at most.. With direct sales, maybe 40 to 50/mo.

 

[all24bits]

Honestly, I like my Abyss Diana V2s, but at medium volumes the bass tends to distort and it really ruins music ( I'm a future funk / Vaporwave kind guy) . At low volumes it performs much better, but all bass heavy music cause them to struggle..

What amp are you running the V2 on? This is the first time I've ever heard of any issues with bass on these. I know two people with these and they run with no problems.

 

[BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp]

What amp are you running the V2 on? This is the first time I've ever heard of any issues with bass on these. I know two people with these and they run with no problems.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/abyss-diana-v2-review-headphone.19291/

The Diana V2 has colossal sub-bass distortion. Though it didn't seem to be audible to Amir.

 

[B4ICU]

HD are a big chunk of the tested products. My logical offer to add comfort was ignored. Ok, what about spending $10 at Walmart and buy a scale,
to get a weight measurement?

 

[RighteousNuts]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/abyss-diana-v2-review-headphone.19291/

The Diana V2 has colossal sub-bass distortion. Though it didn't seem to be audible to Amir.

Speaking from experience, it occurs in bass heavy music as you turn the volume up and it's really noticable ( to me anyways ).

 

[Zensō]

The same people who express any subjective opinion on headphones and usually along the same lines that they praise some headphones, but in the negative.

What I'd really be interested in, is a large scale study where headphone fans/hobbyists have to give their impressions of headphones without knowing what the headphone is.

I truly believe that if reviewers (the ones who just give subjective impressions) didn't know the brand/model or price of the headphones they reviewed, we'd see very different reviews, particularly for the "high-end".

https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/price-sound-quality-headphones

 

[Jimbob54]

This is an important point to consider.
A lot of headphones that don't "measure up" don't sound bad. It's not like there's nothing to enjoy here: it's just not as good as it should be for ~$8000.

There's also a consumer bias that's not being considered. You can't compare someone that would buy an Abyss to someone that would buy a Sennheiser. There is a niche market for this headphone, and it's a market that is most likely supportive of the brand.
Brand image and loyalty is a very powerful tool. Anyone that's lusted over a headphone because "It's made by that uber-expensive brand that I heard about" knows this feeling.

Agree with this- leaving aside comfort and fit issues Im not sure I have listened to any headphones and not enjoyed the music when the music is good. Discovering EQ showed me most could be "better" and reviews with measurements here and elsewhere are useful guides. I am 100% sure I could listen to any Abyss headphones and really enjoy them stock. Then look at my poor starving child in his too small clothes and shoes with holes in the soles.

 

[amirm]

HD are a big chunk of the tested products. My logical offer to add comfort was ignored. Ok, what about spending $10 at Walmart and buy a scale,
to get a weight measurement?

Weight and cup dimensions are part of every review including this one.

 

[B4ICU]

Weight and cup dimensions are part of every review including this one.

Could you please be kind to address me, where in this test report, I can find that information?
Thanks

 

[aldarrin]

Here you go =)

 

[Inazzab]

And you use measurements to evaluate equipment because without them you wouldn't have the slightest clue what you prefer if you were to compare two pairs of headphones without them. Let's rid ourselves of the notion that prejudicing our subjective evaluation of these things with measurements before we listen somehow makes us less biased and more "scientific."

Exactly, all subjective evaluations are (mostly) equally biased in unpredictable and unknown ways. This is why we need measurements; because what you hear does not necessarily reflect reality. Here's a fantastically informative article going discussing how and why humans can get things wrong while listening.