Absolute Transparency

[Doodski]

How flat/straight does the HD 560S look when put against the Drop / Sennheiser HD 58X Jubilee and the Sennheiser HD 660S?

The HD58X Jubilee has the better frequency response graph between it and the HD660.
The HD560 looks to be a little little bit brighter sounding than the HD58X Jubilee and the HD660 although the HD560 is very very good between 100Hz and ~5kHz.

 

[Chris Kelly]

The HD58X Jubilee has the better frequency response graph between it and the HD660.
The HD560 looks to be a little little bit brighter sounding than the HD58X Jubilee and the HD660 although the HD560 is very very good between 100Hz and ~5kHz.

So in order of more consistency, are you saying the 660S, 58X, 650, and 560S, the 660S, 650, 58X, and 560S, or neither? Also, back in the middle of October, I purchased Sennheiser's least expensive set of open-back headphones--the HD 559. They've gotten lots of negative reviews for their sound. I haven't found any graphs for them. Yet after trying the HD 400 PRO and HD 599, there is something I find intriguing about the 559 even with their heavy presence of bass. Between the negative reviews and how I feel about the 559, I am curious about how the HD 559 would show on a graph without EQ.

 

[Doodski]

So in order of more consistency, are you saying the 660S, 58X, 650, and 560S, the 660S, 650, 58X, and 560S, or neither?

I am saying the 560 seems to be the flattest of them without any EQ/PEQ applied. The 585 and the 660 are both a mess in the upper frequency but are EQ/PEQ friendly as is the 560 and they all work better when EQ'd. All of these Sennheisers are made to be EQ'd/PEQ'd with strong benefit resulting.

back in the middle of October, I purchased Sennheiser's least expensive set of open-back headphones--the HD 559. They've gotten lots of negative reviews for their sound. I haven't found any graphs for them. Yet compared to the HD 400 PRO and HD 599, there is something I find intriguing about the 559 even with their heavy presence of bass.

I have the HD 598SR and they work very well/wayyy better with EQ/PEQ applied.

I am curious about how they measure scientificly/technically.

Perhaps one of the ASR peeps can steer you to a resource for headphone reviews.

HD 400Pro (which is the HD 560S but with a black logo and different cables)

 

[oleg87]

I'm not sure how much I'd want to take from verbal descriptions of one frequency response measurement of one unit of a headphone.

Oratory1990 has measured about 20 units each of the HD600 and HD650 and statistically, they are the same headphone under 1200hz or so. Past that, the HD650's response is attenuated by a few decibels so it has a more downward-sloping response, but its high-mids/treble has less prominent peaks, which may be perceived as smoother.

The various measurements from reputable sources show the 560S has a very prominent peak between 4 to 6 KHz that will have a significant impact on its timbre, since our ears are particularly sensitive there, even though it is fairly well behaved otherwise and has slower bass rolloff.

 

[Chris Kelly]

I am saying the 560 seems to be the flattest of them without any EQ/PEQ applied. The 585 and the 660 are both a mess in the upper frequency but are EQ/PEQ friendly as is the 560 and they all work better when EQ'd. All of these Sennheisers are made to be EQ'd/PEQ'd with strong benefit resulting.

I have the HD 598SR and they work very well/wayyy better with EQ/PEQ applied.

Perhaps one of the ASR peeps can steer you to a resource for headphone reviews.

HD 400Pro (which is the HD 560S but with a black logo and different cables)

If the HD 560S show as the flattest/straightest and I'm OK with the build quality, I guess there's no need or reason to spend $350, especially if the graph for something for $350 isn't showing quite what I'm after. So based on this conversation, being that I have until the end of January thanks to Amazon's holiday return policy, it might be better just to get the 560S, hang on to the 559 for a while, and decide whether to switch between the two based on what I'm listening to or keep one of them. Although I AM curious about how the 559 would show on a graph.

 

[Chris Kelly]

I'm not sure how much I'd want to take from verbal descriptions of one frequency response measurement of one unit of a headphone.

Oratory1990 has measured about 20 units each of the HD600 and HD650 and statistically, they are the same headphone under 1200hz or so. Past that, the HD650's response is attenuated by a few decibels so it has a more downward-sloping response, but its high-mids/treble has less prominent peaks, which may be perceived as smoother.

The various measurements from reputable sources show the 560S has a very prominent peak between 4 to 6 KHz that will have a significant impact on its timbre, since our ears are particularly sensitive there, even though it is fairly well behaved otherwise and has slower bass rolloff.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but like I said, I don't think amirm tested the 600 using the same procedure as the others according to what he wrote. So would this make the 600 straighter/flatter than the 560S, or do the 600 and 560S peak in different areas of the spectrum?

 

[Chris Kelly]

If oratory1990 posted a graph somewhere for the HD 600, how does it compare with amirm's graph for the HD 560S? This would tell us whether the HD 560S or the HD 600 are more neutral, or if the HD 560S and HD 600 tie, but with peaks and dips in different places.

 

[Chris Kelly]

I think I found measurements for all the Sennheiser headphones I'm interested in. I'm not trying to discredit the work of amirm. I'm just saying it's helpful when all the measurements are in one place and the reviews are well-written without self-controdiction. I think the headphone reviews at rtings.com controdict themselves many times. See if I'm understanding this correctly. The HD 559 have overemphasized upper-bass and lower-mids. While there are times footsteps and background noises sound bassier than in real life, there is something I like about them when listening to singers such as Andrea Bocelli, Celine Dion, and Enya. But I want my ears, psychy, and science to match. Either I'm wrong, or the way those singers were recorded works best with the HD 559. The HD 560S has boosted high-mid and low-treble. The HD 599 is a cross between the HD 559 and HD 650. The HD 600 is even more flat/straight/neutral than even the HD 560S, possibly making them my ultimate choice when this is all over. The HD 650 has a boost in the upper bass and a dip in the upper-mids/lower-treble. The HD 660S has a boost in the upper bass, peak in the mids around 1.5 KHz, and a dip in the upper-mids and lower-treble.

 

[Doodski]

@Chris Kelly why are you concerned with what the headphones sound like without EQ/PEQ? Pretty much all headphones tested @ ASR but 3 models benefit greatly from use of EQ/PEQ.

 

[Chris Kelly]

@Chris Kelly why are you concerned with what the headphones sound like without EQ/PEQ? Pretty much all headphones tested @ ASR but 3 models benefit greatly from use of EQ/PEQ.

Not all my gear has EQ, and I like consistency from component to component.

 

[Doodski]

Not all my gear has EQ, and I like consistency from component to component.

Hmmmz. I see.

 

[Doodski]

@Chris Kelly if you decide you want EQ/PEQ I have some listed here.

 

[solderdude]

I think I found measurements for all the Sennheiser headphones I'm interested in. I'm not trying to discredit the work of amirm. I'm just saying it's helpful when all the measurements are in one place and the reviews are well-written without self-controdiction. I think the headphone reviews at rtings.com controdict themselves many times. See if I'm understanding this correctly. The HD 559 have overemphasized upper-bass and lower-mids. While there are times footsteps and background noises sound bassier than in real life, there is something I like about them when listening to singers such as Andrea Bocelli, Celine Dion, and Enya. But I want my ears, psychy, and science to match. Either I'm wrong, or the way those singers were recorded works best with the HD 559. The HD 560S has boosted high-mid and low-treble. The HD 599 is a cross between the HD 559 and HD 650. The HD 600 is even more flat/straight/neutral than even the HD 560S, possibly making them my ultimate choice when this is all over. The HD 650 has a boost in the upper bass and a dip in the upper-mids/lower-treble. The HD 660S has a boost in the upper bass, peak in the mids around 1.5 KHz, and a dip in the upper-mids and lower-treble.

Note that the current HD650 (due to the newer pads) hass less of a midbass hump bringing it closer to the old HD600.
The HD559 has a much, much bigger midbass hump than HD650 and HD58X, the HD560S is more extended and 'neutral' in the bass response.
The HD560S is a little too 'hot' (but can be dealt with passively) but would be (is) my pick since I don't like mid bass humps. To me the HD559 has an unlistenable amount of this.
All plots made on the same fixture, HD559, HD599 and HD560S report a bit less 2-5kHz than reality because of the angled drivers. 'Acoustic smoothing' has been applied.

When you look for that type of sound and want a Sennheiser then maybe de HD599, HD58X or HD650 (second hand) might be the most logical choice because of the 'warmth' they have.

 

[Chris Kelly]

Note that the current HD650 (due to the newer pads) hass less of a midbass hump bringing it closer to the old HD600.
The HD559 has a much, much bigger midbass hump than HD650 and HD58X, the HD560S is more extended and 'neutral' in the bass response.
The HD560S is a little too 'hot' (but can be dealt with passively) but would be (is) my pick since I don't like mid bass humps. To me the HD559 has an unlistenable amount of this.
All plots made on the same fixture, HD559, HD599 and HD560S report a bit less 2-5kHz than reality because of the angled drivers. 'Acoustic smoothing' has been applied.

View attachment 243239

When you look for that type of sound and want a Sennheiser then maybe de HD599, HD58X or HD650 (second hand) might be the most logical choice because of the 'warmth' they have.

View attachment 243240

I also own the 599. It's similar to the 559 with that upper bass boost which bothers me when listening to recordings of footsteps and recordings of ambient noise such as refridurators, fans, etc., but I also hear a boost in the treble which bothers me. To make sure I understand this correctly: The ASR review of the HD 58x Jubilee mentions response similar to the 650 up to 2KHz but has problems past that, while the DIYAH review claims bass similar to the 560S and treble similar to the 650. ASR and DIYAH both claim the 650 has a boost in the upper bass and a rolloff above 2KHZ. ASR claims the 660S have a loss in bass response, a deficiency in low treble, and a peak above 5KHz. DIYAH claims the 660S has a flat and accurate response from 70Hz to 4KHz with a small bump at 1.2KHz, a roll-off at 1.5KHz, and little peaks starting at 5KHz. As you know, I think amirm should retest the HD 600, being that he didn't use the same procedure as he did for the 650. DIYAH claims the 600 is smooth from 100Hz to 4KHz, with a slight boost at 4KHz. ASR and DIYAH both claim the 560S has a flatter response below 100Hz than the 600. However, DIYAH claims the 560S also has more of a boost at 4KHz than the 600. At this point, the way I understand it is amirm has the 560S as the most neutral. However, I can't tell if the 560S, 58X Jubilee, 600, 650, or 660S shows as the most neutral on DIYAH's graphs. As I explained, I am sight impared, can't decipher the graphs, probably wouldn't be able to adjust an EQ unless I knew how many dB each step was adjusting it, and would like to understand at least everyone's measurements before I decide what headphones to try and return until I discover a unit I am satisfied with.

 

[solderdude]

Differences in pad wear, differences in target response (Harman vs my own below a few hundred Hz) and above 1kHz differences in fixture (pinna-less flatplate vs flatplate with ear canal + pinna acc to a standard).

IMO, you only need to EQ the 'broad' picture and perhaps some large peaks and dips. No exact EQ is needed at all. That EQ would only be accurate on that particular fixture.

HD560S and HD600 are the most 'neutral' to me (without EQ) but the HD560S has better low bass but is a bit hotter in the upper mids/lower treble.
The other Sennheisers have some slightly different tuning. This comes mostly down to taste (without any EQ).

Best way is to compare headphones next to each other, for a longer period with a variety of music. Alas not everyone can do that.

HD600 is less 'warm' than HD650.
HD660S is less 'warm' than HD58X (both have a slight, correctable 5.5kHz peak)
HD599 is warmer than HD650, HD559 is warmer than HD599. Might work with some recordings but good recordings will sound muddy as hell.

 

[Chris Kelly]

Differences in pad wear, differences in target response (Harman vs my own below a few hundred Hz) and above 1kHz differences in fixture (pinna-less flatplate vs flatplate with ear canal + pinna acc to a standard).

IMO, you only need to EQ the 'broad' picture and perhaps some large peaks and dips. No exact EQ is needed at all. That EQ would only be accurate on that particular fixture.

HD560S and HD600 are the most 'neutral' to me (without EQ) but the HD560S has better low bass but is a bit hotter in the upper mids/lower treble.
The other Sennheisers have some slightly different tuning. This comes mostly down to taste (without any EQ).

Best way is to compare headphones next to each other, for a longer period with a variety of music. Alas not everyone can do that.

HD600 is less 'warm' than HD650.
HD660S is less 'warm' than HD58X (both have a slight, correctable 5.5kHz peak)
HD599 is warmer than HD650, HD559 is warmer than HD599. Might work with some recordings but good recordings will sound muddy as hell.

Back in 2015 when I was juggling between the extra bass of the Yamaha HPH-MT220 which you also reviewed, and the Pioneer SE-A1000 open-back 50mm, I ultimately could deal with the weaker lower-bass of the Pioneer, but couldn't deal with the over-emphasized upper-mid and lower-treble of the Yamaha. Overemphasized upper-mids and lower-treble make speech and singers sound more like they're being heard through a telephone's earpiece than in person. That 1KHz bump on the 660S would give speech and singers the same effect. I know what boosting that frequency sounds like. While the overemphasized upper-bass and lower-mids of the HD 559 and HD 599 bring out the beauty in singers like Andrea Bocelli, Celine Dion, and Enya, it makes footsteps and ambient noise sound bigger/boomier than they do in real life. It looks like Sennheiser knew what they were talking about in their official video when they said the HD 600 was designed for a cristal clear representation/reproduction of the playback components, while the 650 was designed to warm things up for people who want things more mellow. So it looks like I'll be going with the HD 600 if I ever sell my Yamaha YE-H700A Bluetooth headset, as well as some other players and receiver/amps I don't plan on using anymore. The clear details you provided could save me the hassle of ordering stuff to try and returning it multiple times.

 

[Chris Kelly]

I ordered the HD 600 before I went to bed last night. I was offered thirty days of free Amazon prime. So I should have them tomorrow. I decided not to wait until I sell that other gear I'm not using anymore. As long as my laptop's screen is 15.6", but great, I decided to use it as a backup screen and player for my 5.1 system if my plasma quits. After discovering two or three weeks ago an intimacy similar to reading a book when watching a movie on my laptop while using headphones, I decided it would be good to have the best of both worlds--my 5.1 home theatre system for when I want that wide-open spaciousness, and my laptop and headphones for when I want that intimacy similar to when I read a book. I couldn't have made my decision without the clear details from you guys. Thank you.

 

[solderdude]

Its a logical progression from HD559 to HD599.
Some find the HD600 'boring' and it is in a sense as it lacks bass extension, 'body' and is 'midrange oriented'.
Please give your brain a few days to adjust and do not compare it to the HD559/599. Listen to is exclusively for a while.

It does not have the 'spatial' properties of the HD599/HD560S though.

 

[Chris Kelly]

Its a logical progression from HD559 to HD599.
Some find the HD600 'boring' and it is in a sense as it lacks bass extension, 'body' and is 'midrange oriented'.
Please give your brain a few days to adjust and do not compare it to the HD559/599. Listen to is exclusively for a while.

It does not have the 'spatial' properties of the HD599/HD560S though.

From 2006-2010, I used the Yamaha RH5MA monitor headphones, which I thought were a little strong in the mids and treble. From 2010-2018, I used the Pioneer SE-A1000 open-back headphones which were one of my favorites despite their weak sub-bass. Within that time I tried the Yamaha HPH-MT220 closed-back headphones for their deeper bass, but couldn't deal with the heavy mids and treble. From 2018-2020, I used the Yamaha HPH-150 open-back headphones. They sounded OK, but they only lasted for two years because of their inferior build. From 2020-2022, I used the Yamaha YH-E700A Bluetooth closed-back headphones. Their sound was pretty good when powered off and using their wired connection, but I prefer open-back headphones in order to be aware of my surroundings, as well as for their wider soundstage. So since 2022, I have been exploring the world of Sennheiser open-back headphones. I thought the HD 400 PRO were a little mid and treble heavy. I understand the same thing would apply to the HD 560S. I think the HD 599 get a little sibilant every now and then. I think the HD 559 works with mellow vocal music, but makes other things sound boomy/bassy. So I am hoping the HD 600 will provide the sense of balance I'm looking for whether listening to Classical Music, Classic Rock, Pop, or movies and shows.

 

[solderdude]

I thought the HD 400 PRO were a little mid and treble heavy. I understand the same thing would apply to the HD 560S

Yes, they are the same headphone. Only the logo is black and you get an extra cable with the HD400Pro.
And yes, they are a tad on the bright side but this can be fixed passively or with EQ.