About manufacturer measurements

[Theo]

The absence of properly documented measurements from manufacturers was mentioned in the Yggy measurement thread. This is true for cable, most DACs and Amps. To me the main reason for this is that there is no competitive edge in showing those as they would all be the same or would be bad compared with basic products available nowadays (As shown by Amir for the Schiit products). I'm talking about the ones we can find in this forum, not just THD and FR@+/-3dB...
I would be curious to know what you think of measurements provided by other manufacturers (like speakers) and if you have examples from past products? When I bought my speakers in 1982, there was a technical paper provided with measurements (frequency response curves if I remember well, not documented about the protocol used though) for each unit!
Is this something from the past?

 

[amirm]

Speaker situation is horrible. As Dr. Toole is fond of saying, there is more useful information on the side of a car tire than there is for speakers!

Proper speaker measurements needs to show weighted average of speaker radiation in different configurations (direct, first reflection and later reflection). A single frequency response with huge +- dB numbers is useless.

 

[DonH56]

Speakers were never all that well characterized in product manuals/datasheets IME/IMO. Components were a little better, and in Days Gone By used to include schematics that were always fun to review.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Focusrite and some other pro gear companies on some products adhere to AES17 in measurements. While better than nothing it too has to be divined with care so you don't end up expecting more than you get. It also doesn't seem so rigorous in some areas. Plus makers may use and quote to the AES17 standard, but not provide all the measurements of that standard and therefore can still be selective in what to show.

Here is a 1998 version of the AES17 which was re-affirmed in 2004 and 2009. It was updated with some changes in 2015. I don't have access to that as it costs $100. Which is also strange to me. Why not disseminate your standard far and wide for free?

http://amplificadoresnextpro.com.br/files/GTA/AES17-1998 - r2009.pdf

 

[Blumlein 88]

Stereophile and soundstage net are the best available long running repository of measurements to use. Seems to me tubed gear often has laughable results vs claims. Most of your better established marques meet or exceed their claims. Increasingly the smaller companies make very little claims.

And as far as the market is concerned, who cares. Listen and see for yourself is the motto. Specs don't matter sound does is another.

You have Mike Moffat's Theta work that was often exemplary in a measured sense though at eye watering expense levels. I can only assume in his current company he is just spinning a tale, making a sale, and cashing in. He knows the difference, and is capable of doing better than he does. Maybe he isn't good at doing well without expense, but he knows what he makes isn't super good. It is good enough it sells very well. Noticed on their website a few items are on back order. So if they can't make enough to keep up with demand why should they care?

 

[Theo]

Ok. So what you are saying is: no, there is no serious measurements from the makers, even in the pro sector. We have to rely on reviewers and on this forum!
This is the jungle!
I had a look around at some makers. They are showing a few numbers (FR, SNR...) and for some speakers (Genelec) a frequency response curve, without much details. A special mention for Dutch & Dutch who show directivity curves. However, this is their gimmick, isn't it? Couldn't find anything for Kii. That's again, on the makers website... I may have missed it, because in the best case, you must look hard to find those curves...

 

[svart-hvitt]

GENELEC AND DOCUMENTATION

Example of Genelec product manual:
https://www.genelec.com/sites/defau...udio Monitors/8341A/8341_operating_manual.pdf

Example of Genelec product advice:
https://www.genelec.com/sites/defau...gues/genelec_monitors_in-room_performance.pdf

Example of Genelec product background:
https://www.genelec.com/sites/defau...martikainen_eggleston_resolution_magazine.pdf

Example of Genelec paper:
https://www.genelec.com/sites/defau...kivirta_et_al_paper_95_2017-04-03_v_1.0.2.pdf

So it seems like there are some producers out there that make measurements and state relevant specifications. Still, I have, practically speaking, yet to find endorsements of Genelec in audiophile circles. So specs and measurements may not be important marketing wise after all?

 

[Theo]

Interestingly enough, I had looked at the G2 speaker manual, which does not show directivity curves. Definitely not a marketing point for general public.... Only for pros.

 

[svart-hvitt]

Interestingly enough, I had looked at the G2 speaker manual, which does not show directivity curves. Definitely not a marketing point for general public.... Only for pros.

When I show people the Genelec documentation, it’s quite common that people tell me that this documentation is irrelevant and too little. They don’t find the specs and documentation they wanted.

It reminds me a bit about @amirm ’s measurements. Many people will never be satisfied about measurements, always looking for documentation that’s missing.

So I kind of understand why most producers don’t release too many measurements. It’s like opening Pandora’s box; some measurements will only produce more questions.

 

[Pio2001]

GENELEC AND DOCUMENTATION
[...]
So it seems like there are some producers out there that make measurements and state relevant specifications.

Neumann also gives measurements for their monitors : frequency response, horizontal and vertical directivity plots, distortion vs frequency, group delay vs frequency, waterfall...

PSI audio also gives some useful data.

 

[Sal1950]

Ok. So what you are saying is: no, there is no serious measurements from the makers, even in the pro sector. We have to rely on reviewers and on this forum!

That is in general a truthful statement.
The whole history of HiFi mostly shows manufacturers published measurements to be just another marketing tool. They vary from being used with falsely exaggerating the numbers, to hiding numbers that might make a negative impression, to supplying no information at all.. The consumer has used the media (magazines in the earlier days) as an alternate and hopefully more accurate source of information. (Audio magazine, Hirsch-Houck Labs, etc) in the day.
There were so many good possibilities, but sadly most sources got prostituted for varing reasons, mainly money.

 

[andreasmaaan]

JBL Pro and a number of other pro manufacturers give frequency response + directivity index / beamwidth / polar response on most speaker models. This gives far from a complete picture but is useful if you’re deciding what to use in a pro installation.