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A Watt is a Watt or do you need a powerful amplifier for good bass?

SIY

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You got it.

It's not the rated watts, it's what it can actually deliver into a load. And how much is needed depends on the speaker.
 

solderdude

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I probably should have stated my question differently. Is it likely there will be a difference in bass if you have different amplifiers outputting the same amount of power? This where one amplifier is a tiny hifiberry compared to a large hifi grade amplifier. Of course without a difference in distortion levels.

However, what I gather from all your answers is that this question is impossible to answer since it depends on characteristics of the speaker and amplifier. Is that a correct summary?

Yes. A Watt is a Watt and sounds the same. 2 different amps both rated at 20W for instance may not perform the same near their maximum performance but will most likely below the same well below their maximum range... This reminds me...

Once I had an old Technics amp (SU-V2 early version) and it sounded different than my other amps (own design). I could clearly hear it even in AB tests (sighted and level matched).
The amp sounded fine but just slightly 'fuller'.
After sweeping the Technics amp I found out that the Baxandall tone control was a passive circuit where log pots were used instead on an active one which uses linear pots.
Turned out that when the tone control pots were in the middle position the electrical 'middle' was shifted. The bass thus was somewhat boosted while believing it was 'flat'.
After I found out where the pots should be set the differences were gone.
Just a warning for when using 'old' amps that usually had tone controls... they may not be 'accurate'.
 
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GGroch

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I think we CAN answer the question with a high probability of being correct if we limit it to this specific use case. You should hear a major difference in bass quality.

The Use Case:
- Dynaudio excite x38 speakers....which are listed as having an nominal impedance of 4 Ohms (I have not seen the graph but this means at many frequencies the impedance will be below 4 Ohms) and and sensitivity of 88 dB (which is medium/low)

- Hifiberry Amp2 which MFG rates at 60 watts...but does not provide enough information for us to know what that means....stereo or mono, under what conditions (ohm rating) and at what distortion level. These are specifications that EVERY old school amp would give you. You certainly cannot conclude "watts are watts" without having compatible specs.

- The TAS5756M amp chip provides more information.... The amp puts out maybe 18 watts per channel continuous into 4 ohms at 10% distortion. But 10% distortion is CLEARLY AUDIBLE. Most people here probably think 1% is audible and .2% or below is where to shoot for. We can also see that the TAS5756M chip is straining a 4 Ohms...because it starts to put out less power (instantaneous/peak) than at 8 ohms. An amp that does 4 ohms well without straining should put out twice the 4 ohm power than at 8. Plus, the amp was not designed for less than 4 ohms...and your speakers are below 4 ohms much of the time.

- You keep volume limited with Volumio software. Most here are not familiar, but from what I can see it is specifically programmed for your Hifiberry so as not to over drive it. But....what exactly does that mean. Is it limiting the output to 60 watts (30 per channel) the MFG rated power. If so, the distortion will be quite high and you will hear the difference. Is it 18 Watts per channel (TA's spec)....then the distortion will be 10% and you will hear it. Is it 12 Watts per channel or less.... if this amp was really designed for nominal 4 ohm speakers (its not) then perhaps not. But...it would play the speakers very softly.

The Alternative Amp: Creek Evo 85 WPC - this amp handles 4 ohm loads very well putting out approx 110 WPC into 4 ohms both channels driven

Here is a useful link (I think) showing speaker sensitivity vs watts needed for typical applications.

To get the best answer for watts needed we plug in the sensitivity (88db) and your distance from the speakers (measure it). An example...if you sit 8 feet from the speakers and want to get 95dB volume (the volume of light music) you would need 59 watts per channel. Your amp does not do that.

So the old one in the basement should sound better. But...if you sit really close (you can plug in the measure) and only listen to levels of quiet conversation (not sure why bass would be important in this case) you are fine...you need less than 1 watt.

There ARE factors...discussed by those more knowledgeable than I above...that can theoretically effect all of this....so that you can hear differences even at below 1 watt. But your amp is so clearly a mismatch for your speakers for most uses...those differences do not matter.

Addendum: Since this post is obviously not long enough ;) Objectively there should be a very significant difference in sound...the big amp should sound better. But... we do not hear objectively except in blind comparisons. So, if you hate the big amp and really like the Hifiberry (perhaps you do or you would have tried it already) you may not hear a difference...or may think the HifiB sounds better. That's fine...use the one that pleases you most.

Still ...Try it! We can certainly say it would be worth a trip to the basement because it will probably improve things.
 
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Sir Sanders Zingmore

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Thanks for all your input although I have to say that I am still very much confused!

That my current combination is not optimal is clear. I cannot reach higher sound levels because of the limited power. I am still unsure if listening at low levels will improve if I lug down my old creek evo amplifier from my attic and hook it up. Subjectively it probably will...

I probably should have stated my question differently. Is it likely there will be a difference in bass if you have different amplifiers outputting the same amount of power? This where one amplifier is a tiny hifiberry compared to a large hifi grade amplifier. Of course without a difference in distortion levels.

However, what I gather from all your answers is that this question is impossible to answer since it depends on characteristics of the speaker and amplifier. Is that a correct summary?

Two amps that are similarly specced and are operating at all times in their linear range will sound very similar
 

GGroch

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I think Sir Sanders is right...I was confused because you do not have 2 amps with the same power and distortion specs.

You have 1 amp that puts out probably 12 watts into your speakers at perhaps 5% distortion and does not particularly like 4 ohm speakers...and another with much better tolerance for 4 Ohm speakers and much lower distortion (at 12 watts).

But...if you did whether they weighed 4 ounces or 8 pounds or were class A, AB, or D.... Sir Sanders is right, the differences would be small.
 

watchnerd

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Thanks for all your input although I have to say that I am still very much confused!

That my current combination is not optimal is clear. I cannot reach higher sound levels because of the limited power. I am still unsure if listening at low levels will improve if I lug down my old creek evo amplifier from my attic and hook it up. Subjectively it probably will...

I probably should have stated my question differently. Is it likely there will be a difference in bass if you have different amplifiers outputting the same amount of power? This where one amplifier is a tiny hifiberry compared to a large hifi grade amplifier. Of course without a difference in distortion levels.

However, what I gather from all your answers is that this question is impossible to answer since it depends on characteristics of the speaker and amplifier. Is that a correct summary?

How many dBs are high and low level to you?
 
OP
A

Audioagnostic

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Watchnerd, I tried to measure dB using a smartphone app but dont think that is reliable. Distance to speakers is about 3 meters.
I am waiting for a new raspberry pi dac combo to arrive and will test my old bulky amplifier as soon as I have this running. I dont think I can hook up my hifiberry directly.

In addition to the difficulty in objectively evaluating two amplifiers, this streamer will also have another dac ( allo boss 1.2) so an objective comparison to answer my question will be impossible...
 

trl

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The title says it all. There is an audio myth that large amplifiers are needed to get good bass.
Is this true?

[...].

Short answer: Ideally would be to not get over 50% of max. recommended power of your amplifier when doing critical listening to your preferred songs (max. power across 20-20000Hz for your speakers impedance with low THD). That's more like a "safety" measure to ensure us that the amplifier will provide a low THD and moderate heat dissipation on top of the amp. Also, my speakers are having a 3...20 Ohms impedance, the 3 Ohms being on the low-end (20...30Hz), so indeed lower octaves are much more difficult to be handled by amplifiers. Like solderdude said, active speakers might help in delivering a cleaner audio output.

It's like buying a car, will you choose one having top speed of 170Km/h or the one able to get you up to 200Km/h? Even if you know you'll never pass over 150Km/h on the freeway you'll most likely get the second car, because it's able to run at 150Km/h without struggling and without forcing the engine too much.


Long answer: http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013314thx-reference-level/ explains here that to be able to "feel" correctly the scenes from the movies (also to hear the entire dynamic and soundstage of the music we listen) we need to have an audio system able to "sing" at an average output level as loud as 85dB at listener's position and also leaving place for a 20dB more dynamic; that means an audio system needs to be able to deliver 105dB peaks SPL at listener's position.

Speaker%2520reference%2520level.gif

I'd like to relate 2x100W RMS with loudness:
- For my Pioneer speakers having 83dB/W/1m, 100W RMS means 103dB SPL @1m; my listening position is 3m away, so 9dB get down (3dB/meter) and remaining loudness would be 94dB SPL/speaker. Counting the 2nd speaker will add 6dB into equation, hence total SPL would be 100dB at listener's position (lower than 105dB, so not compatible with THX standards unless moving about 1.5 meters closer to speakers).
- For my Canton speakers with 90dB/W/1m the same 100W RMS means 110dB SPL @1m; at 3m away that would be 101dB SPL/speaker at listener's position. Counting the 2nd speaker will add 6dB into equation, hence total SPL would be 107dB at listener's position (seems to meet the THX recommendations).

On the above link there's a similar calculation that could be useful; you can see there that THX-certified could mean output power up to 300W for both channels if listener's position is at 11 feet:

THX%2520Ref.png

Seems that in my living room I need an amplifier able to deliver at least 200 Watts totally (100 Watts RMS/channel) with very low distortions (<0.1% across audio range would suffice), so I can enjoy THX requirement at 3 meters away from the speakers.

Also, my sub does not meet THX specs of 115dB SPL at listening position, for frequencies below 40Hz (between 20-31.5 Hz the average is 113.0 dB), based on https://www.soundandvision.com/content/review-svs-pb-1000-subwoofer-measurements, so I need to get a second sub or to swap it with a bigger one (which I'll not be doing it for sure):
Subwoofer%2520reference%2520level.gif

I do believe that having an audio system able to deliver 105dB SPL at listener's position, or even more than 105dB, it's a warranty that on normal listening levels distortions will be insignificant and there's enough dynamic and headroom left there for critical listening sessions.

Note: The above images are direct links to http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013314thx-reference-level/.
 
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