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A warning. There is a new web article going aroud that is a crock of schmidt.

Robin L

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The funny thing to me is that LPs [and their ilk] have in-your-face distortions that negatively affect the replay of music in almost all cases. Compression, de-essing, groove cramming, off-center pressings, bass issues, treble issues, warps, the reality that the available energy in the groove has nowhere to go but down as it reaches the deadwax . . . but if the media stays true to pitch, there's a problem because of some bad mojo in the digits? If it's "musicality" that's a concern, why do analog buffs ignore obvious issues with pitch?
 

lucian

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Yes, that's a shocker, isn't it? OTOH the esteemed Mitch Barnett is an ex-studio engineer and 12 bits is his limit <https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits...gital-Audio-–-Bit-Perfect-Audibility-Testing/>

That actually reminds me on the human eye. 180 dB range (@ 3mW !!) - and video is still 8bit at 3 different colors ....

However - we still can differentiate between playback (audio and video) from the real world. So even if we perfectionate 2 channel stereo or flat video with perfect black values (oled) - here is still a LOT of headroom for improvements ;)


Screenshot_2019-10-24 Seeing with Silicon Retinas Tobi Delbruck Inst of Neuroinformatics, Univ...png
http://rpg.ifi.uzh.ch/docs/ICRA17workshop/Delbruck.pdf
 

Cbdb2

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So many logical fallacies! immediate appeal to authority with the Neil Young opener.

And then twist Niels words. Acording to this Niel is not anti digital, https://www.wired.com/story/neil-young/
Just anti low res. I wonder if Neil knows this moron is using his name. Seems like bad marketing for someone who is setting up a digital streaming service. Maybe Ill send Neil an email. Wouldnt you love to see the guys face if Niel told him hes an idiot and to remove his name from the paper.
 
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CDMC

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First mover advantage explains this. Licence fees will come into it as well, but free codecs don't enjoy universal support, even now FLAC is not supported as much as MP3.

Also, everyone knows that 320 > 256, therefore the former is better. Welcome to the internet age, where we are drowning in information, but people don't spend the slightest amount of time to research their options or the truth, instead preferring to rely on facebook blurbs and twitter posts.

There is no doubt in my mind I can hear the difference between Redbook and 320k MP3/256k AAC. The differences are slight and really only observable to me by carefully listening to sections of track back to back. I would gladly trade the available of Redbook and above sources for all 256k AAC in exchange for the music being mixed well and not compressed beyond belief. Unfortunately few people (or recording artists) seem interested in quality mixes. I have spent some time on pro sites for mastering engineers and most care about sound, but are overruled by the artists and/or music exectutives who insist on more compression. Louder is better according to them.
 

CDMC

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"Neil Young was a famous rock musician in the 1970s, specializing in live performance and weird acoustic spaces, like the echo-filled iron sawdust burner I once camped in as a kid."

Neil Young took out my top octave back in 1978, his "Zuma" days at the Fabulous Forum in L.A. It's a wonder he can hear anything.

I think Neil took out more than his ears in the 70s, assuming there was anything there to start with. I find it rather disturbing that celebrities become authorities on subjects they know nothing about simply because of their celebrity status. Now if Mayim Bialik wants to start talking about why we hear things the way we do, I would listen, but not because she was in a popular TV show, but because she has a PHD in neuroscience from UCLA.
 

GrimSurfer

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I find it rather disturbing that celebrities become authorities on subjects they know nothing about simply because of their celebrity status.

Like Bono talking about international tax policy to aid the poor, when he uses every loophole in the book to minimize his tax profile? Or like jetting to locations around the world to lend support to global warming protests?
 

Blake Klondike

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You wish to kill off all of the loose and windy banter, and thus the fun? :facepalm:
I was referring to the original article-- my uncle, who got me started in the hobby years ago, has talked about how his hifi shop in Denver used to be filled with people listening to gear and talking shop and how that is what he misses most. I feel like this forum serves that purpose really well!
 

BillG

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Mayim Bialik wants to start talking about why we hear things the way we do, I would listen, but not because she was in a popular TV show, but because she has a PHD in neuroscience from UCLA.

Hearing isn't her area of expertise though, but Prader-Willi syndrome is... :D
 

Wombat

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Can you point me at such a study please.

I can see how that would work, given people get better at such DBT after training, it shows the difference is there, even if they cannot detect it whilst untrained.

Or while listening to a recorded performance.
 

Wombat

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I was referring to the original article-- my uncle, who got me started in the hobby years ago, has talked about how his hifi shop in Denver used to be filled with people listening to gear and talking shop and how that is what he misses most. I feel like this forum serves that purpose really well!

This forum is supposedly a bit more focussed than that. :cool:
 

yikky900

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I can see how that would work, given people get better at such DBT after training, it shows the difference is there, even if they cannot detect it whilst untrained.

Not to mention lossy hates ambient noise, artificial sounds and more than can make it give up at 320kb/s. I used to be a HA member i know them downplaying when a sample at 128kb/s vbr would shoot up to 275kb/s?. Or them going it's lossy so what it?, if called out with DBT tests showing its a killer sample.

I find it funny when few say to hear the difference you need a HD800?. Yet i can tell on some with my ER4SR.
 

LuckyLuke575

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Do a needle drop of your records in 16/44.1 and listen to those. They will sound identical.
No, you're confused. I'm saying that taking a master tape of Beatles recordings that is 15 ips tape, and capturing that digitally in 2019, then making a new mix and committing that to 96/24 sounds amazing. So it's got nothing to do with the age of the recording whether high res PCM will benefit or not. That's the point that someone was making.
 

Robin L

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What I've heard a few times is that musicians don't really care about sound "quality" (whatever that is), but they really cannot stand timing errors (wow, flutter, & drift). Could this be an aspect of having "perfect pitch"?
"Perfect Pitch" is a myth. The notion of "Perfect Pitch" falls apart when one becomes familiar with musics that are not Diatonic/Chromatic A = 440. And there's plenty of that. I spent years recording "Early Music Ensembles" using A = 415. And have listened to lots of "World Music" that has pitch sets that don't have anything to do with standard western rules of pitch and harmony. Not to mention musician/instrument builders like Harry Partch who developed harmonic systems that subdivide an octave into 47 distinct pitches.

Good musicians have good relative pitch, all pitch is relative.

I remember a concert where everybody was playing with one pitch set that made sense for "Classical" era [1780-1825] pitch and the soloist played in a pitch suitable for Baroque music [1600-1750]. The soloist's relative pitch was perfectly "on" for Bach or Biber, but the mixture of the two different pitch sets was excruciatingly off.

However, nobody plays music with the sort of off-pitch resulting from an off-center LP or 78, or the flutter of a turntable or an analog recorder and those well acquainted with Pianos, Organs, Choruses, Synthesizers and others sounds that hold pitch solidly over an extended period of time will notice the pitch variation as a terrible distortion.
 
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Tks

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Can't tell whos the bigger moron, this PhD from Caltech of all places supposedly, or Neil Young..

Here's how anyone with a shred of education, and basic deductive reasoning can dismiss this nonsense:

Put another way, if a sensitive, world-acclaimed innovator denounces his industry and its technology for undermining human dignity and brain function, something big is up .

Yes, the probability of ignorance, stupidity, but mostly a mental neurosis such as a psychosis diagnosis if VERY "up". (the former mostly being attributed to the author since he purportedly has had higher levels of education.

Science needs to get emotion right, and sound is in the way.

Oh fuck off retard.. This bullshit all-or-nothing fallacy: "If you don't know everything about one aspect of our discussion, then your science is to be disregarded in totality".

Only to then have to look like a complete buffoon when he realizes all current understanding is due to scientific exploration, and the only reason we have placeholder words like "happy" and such is for laymen that don't have to get a college education before they describe the brains' pathway of neurons and hormonal interactions between synapses just so that they indicate pleasure. Science inches every second toward revealing even these eye-rollingly cringe commentaries on "science can't explain emotion", or "science can't explain the MIND".. as if to indicate either of these aspects are some supernatural intangibilities removed from the physical brain.

But this is how science denial always works, these retards always co-opt discoveries they can no longer deny and simply move on to aspects science lacks the foundation and logistics and time to fully explore. And ALWAYS make the "oh so if you can't fully explain it, therefore my X irrational, unsubstantiated machinations on the matter are true - or you simply can't speak because you can't answer every question I have"..

How on Earth can someone from Caltech make this following claim, I can't imagine. Whoever issued this man a PhD should suffer legal penalty, and I say this fully outside of everything I've talked about here. I just want to draw your attention to this one completely idiotic and pernicious claim (this basically proves the author is either a lair, or in need of medical attention if you can say the following after finishing up an education from CalTech.

Overall, the comments cluster into complementary philosophies, which might be called theory vs. experiment.” They raise the deepest issues possible pertaining to interpreting reality: How much should we trust the laws of nature versus how much should we trust our own sensory experience? Of course, people who notice differences in sonic texture will say so, as the reader comments above refer to the experiential data of “color,” “depth” and such. But other people, those who know certain laws of physics always apply, will assert the primacy of natural law bluntly, as one might assert the self-evidence of 2+2=4.


The unfortunate asymmetry of such discussions is that while one individual sensory experience doesn’t speak to anyone else’s, and thus doesn’t insult them, the reverse isn’t true. Invoking a law of nature that says certain experiences can’t possibly exist does, in fact, insult anyone having that experience. In such discussions, the “scientists,” in effect, call the “musicians” stupid, insensitive and/or hallucinating.

Yes in this very specific instance I am calling you, and the droves of boasters, stupid AND hallucinating. Stupid because you should know better that after decades of putting audiophiles to the test, they have ALL failed in their mythological-level claims (thus you should know as a scientist why its not good using human subjectes in every validation procedure is a scientific reality long established). Hallucinating because not only do you not see the horrendous track record of every single one of these failures, but also for deluding yourself with machinations of someone who hasn't the faintest clue of basic high school science education foundations are.

How many more objective failures do these lunatics need to abandon this stupidity?

Worse with this author as he is a "biophysicist" and "neuroscientist", maybe he can explain to us in a future article what the actual pathway of these sorts of mental neurosis' are on the psychical brain-wiring level. But even then I'd imagine we'd get some idiotic super-natural explanation.
 

Killingbeans

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My experience so far is that most of these stupid situations arises because of peoples inability to fathom the concept of really large numbers.

Using a tiny data set in a statistical equation obviously makes the result useless, but on the other hand using outrageously large data sets seemingly "breaks" the equation and gives result that a lazy person could easily classify as magical or supernatural.

The sheer amount of neurons in a human brain does push its behaviour into something that seems strange compared to simpler constructions, but that does NOT mean it defies the laws of physics.
 

Tks

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@Killingbeans Id general agree, though this authors’ credentials disqualify him from ever having this label placed upon him. If his credentials are true, he doesn’t get to claim ignorance of what you describe.
 

LuckyLuke575

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I was referring to the original article-- my uncle, who got me started in the hobby years ago, has talked about how his hifi shop in Denver used to be filled with people listening to gear and talking shop and how that is what he misses most. I feel like this forum serves that purpose really well!
Yeah, that's really missing in this day and age. At least for them they were able to listen to the gear and judge it directly, but we have measurements to rely on so I guess we have something they didn't have and vice versa :)
 

Killingbeans

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@Killingbeans Id general agree, though this authors’ credentials disqualify him from ever having this label placed upon him. If his credentials are true, he doesn’t get to claim ignorance of what you describe.

Then I guess it all comes down to laziness :)
 

JJB70

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Tertiary education and professional training in a particular field does not confer competence and expertise in other fields, something sometimes forgotten by those who like to attach their credentials to statements based on an assumption that their education makes them wise in all things. I have a post graduate degree and various vocational training certificates in marine engineering and mechanical engineering, whatever expertise that might indicate (and to be honest, I've been around enough blocks to not associate impressive credentials with wisdom) is limited to particular fields (it is actually much narrower than it might seem as my higher education specialised in combustion thermodynamics and emissions, so there are huge areas of my own field I'm pretty ignorant about, with a brief excursion into torsional vibration). It sort of irritates me when people wave a diploma, degree or doctoral degree around as if to tell people "look I'm cleverer than you, so don't question me".
Ditto with papers, there is a whole cottage industry of publications and conferences which exist to publish stuff in a world where one of the most important key performance indicators for many academics or those working in research is the number of papers they publish. Some technical papers are utter bollox, others are pretty good but flawed and others are excellent, but unless you know what you are reading and have the necessary competence to evaluate the contents then do not assume that because information is provided in a technical paper it must be correct. I sometimes am asked to review papers as part of the publication process in a couple of the better journals in my field and I see some real howlers.
 

Martin Takamine

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https://www.fairobserver.com/more/s...ital-audio-science-news-william-softky-39078/

It is an absolute crock of excrement of the worst order, showing that the author does not understand any of the following:

1) Information theorem
2) Nyquist theorem
3) Human hearing

It is, none the less, being promoted as "the TRVTH that science won't admit".

I sent them a complaint letter with my professional creds listed. So far, nothing.

Unfortunately there is no "comments" section to excoriate this pile of composted dung.
I was disappointed when I reached the end of the article because there was nothing to purchase. This was just another info ad, wasn't it?
 
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