A Visit to Mike Lavigne's Home and Sound Galleries Media Server

[Thomas savage]

I think you're on to something there....$$$

If sal’s bowl movements were worth anything his ex wife’s would of had them..

 

[Analog Scott]

It's about fighting against the propagation of pseudo-science and falsehoods.

When one looks at the assaults on science, climate change deniers, polititians claiming beliefs in evolution has lead to civil disorder, flat arthers on the rise, homiopathy as alternative medicine and so on there is no doubt that the fight against the propagation of pseudo scinece is an important one. I am not so convinced that ridicule towards audiophiles is really an effective means of fighting the good fight.

It's about fighting against the dumbing down of the hobby.

Since I don't buy the idea that there is any meaningful concern over audiophiles causing any real harm by having whatever beliefs they may have, I still suspect this particular fight is more about ego than anything else.

Reading a 1951 hi fi magazine, it's shocking about how technical, and educational, it is compared to the magical thinking audio journalism so common today.

If there is an absence of technical audio magazines then maybe someone should step up and fill the void. I don't buy the idea that subjectivist audio magazines are a direct cause for any lack of technically oriented audio magazines.

 

[Analog Scott]

40 years? Of course.

I'm speaking of the last 10.

The biggest developments in the last 10 years have been the ability to cheaply apply DSP to a wider range of products, at cheaper and cheaper price points and good quality Class D amps. These developments mostly occurred outside traditional hi fi vendors.

Ironically, these developments are eschewed by large swathes of the audiophile community, many of whom prefer to stick with big Class A amps and/or tubes and passive speakers.

And yet they still happened.

 

[Analog Scott]

Example?

This is actually a pretty common thing for me with a lot of modern classical music when heard in concert. In fact it's pretty common thing for me with a number of not so modern pieces of music when heard live.

 

[Analog Scott]

Mike's rig might be a bit vulgar, but in a lot of it at least you can seen the value, the gear that obviously took a lot (was expensive to build). Sort of along the lines of custom cars or restorations, you can see where the money goes. So if you got it, I see no real problem spending it there.
Want to talk about things that rich folks spend money (collect) on? How about art, fortunes are spent on paintings, etc; that look like they could have been done by kindergarten kids with water colors. Or the Picasso stuff that looks like it was done on a bad (or good) acid trip. And because some freak somewhere see's some kind of inner vision in the artists mind, the dollar value of a few cents in supplies turns into a multi million dollar wall hanging. You look at stuff done by the Michelangelo's and anyone can see the talent, but so much in the art world makes the snake-oil peddling in audio look like a flea on a elephants ass in comparison.

Off topic but, you really can't see the talent in Picasso's art?

 

[watchnerd]

Since I don't buy the idea that there is any meaningful concern over audiophiles causing any real harm by having whatever beliefs they may have, I still suspect this particular fight is more about ego than anything else.

Okay, I told you why I was important in my mind.

If you don't believe that, suspect what you want.

Not sure what you're trying to accomplish.

 

[Analog Scott]

Because I get the sense that a lot of these guys are not fully in control of their purchases. Some of them make lots of money, but most do not.

I thought we were talking about Mike specifically. That you felt sorry for him. Yet by all appearances he is having a blast as an audiophile.

 

[Sal1950]

I am not so convinced that ridicule towards audiophiles is really an effective means of fighting the good fight.

As I've said a number of times here, when all attempts to inject true scientific paths and common sense fall on deaf ears, all that's left is ridicule the wrongheadedness.

If there is an absence of technical audio magazines then maybe someone should step up and fill the void. I don't buy the idea that subjectivist audio magazines are a direct cause for any lack of technically oriented audio magazines.

Not good for commerce is the usual line. The high end believers need to be led to a truth that supports their expensive purchases. No market for a magazine.
The info is there for those that are interested, but point members of WBF, CA, etc with links to it and all that comes in return is hand waving.

 

[watchnerd]

As I've said a number of times here, when all attempts to inject true scientific paths and common sense fall on deaf ears, all that's left is ridicule the wrongheadedness.

People can have fun and still be wrong and anti-science.

I've had a lot of fun at Wiccan healing ceremonies I've been to. Didn't mean it was good science.

 

[Analog Scott]

I was taking the piss with the “ the effect is accumulative “ as that’s always the Audio snake oil special but yes I do like his work and been to some well curated exhibitions of his stuff.

It’s not his fault people pay so much for his stuff ( he’s brown bread after all) , artists do what they do what value others find in their work monetarily or otherwise is nothing to do with them.

I’m a sucker for a well drawn horse too though ( been to exhibitions of his (Da Vinci) drawings and they are simply awe inspiring studies of form and anatomy) this will sound weird but I found it like seeing gods blue prints for life ( not that I belive in god but there you go)

DaVinci, Michelangelo and some other great Reniassance artists clearly beat god at his own game.

 

[Analog Scott]

Okay, I told you why I was important in my mind.

If you don't believe that, suspect what you want.

Not sure what you're trying to accomplish.

Sorry, didn't mean to word it in such a way that it made it about you. I didn't mean to question your personal intent. It's an observation about the general vitriol exchanged between waring camps in audio. The vitriol and exchange of personal insults are often excused as a fight for a higher cause but IMO it mostly looks to me to be driven by ego. If you personally believe that ridicule towards the beliefs of certain audiophiles is a noble fight in defense of science I am not going to question your sincerity. I do question the actual effectiveness of it though.

 

[Analog Scott]

As I've said a number of times here, when all attempts to inject true scientific paths and common sense fall on deaf ears, all that's left is ridicule the wrongheadedness.

So it's not enough to believe you are right? You must also prove to others that they are wrong? There is another option. Live and let live. It is just a hobby.

Not good for commerce is the usual line. The high end believers need to be led to a truth that supports their expensive purchases. No market for a magazine.
The info is there for those that are interested, but point members of WBF, CA, etc with links to it and all that comes in return is hand waving.

Or, perhaps, the high end believers are actually enjoying how they do their hobby. The horror the horror.

 

[watchnerd]

Off topic but, you really can't see the talent in Picasso's art?

I've been to Madrid quite a few times, but a few years ago I finally go enough free time to go to La Reina Sofia museum of modern art, where both Dali and Picasso were exhibited.

A couple of things struck me:

1. 'Guernica' is huge. Like the size of a billboard. I had no idea it was that big, or if I knew the fact at some point, it didn't register. But because it's so huge, the brush strokes are crude, slathered on. Up close, it looks rude and almost unskilled. It's only when you step back and look at it from 20+ feet away that it all gels into art and conveys horror.

2. Dali was the opposite. From a middle distance, I was a little underwhelmed, thinking his works didn't look much better than the prints thereof. But when you get closer, you realize what a master of small details he was, and you see things that the prints don't reproduce, brush strokes so fine and 3D that they scatter the light and embellish small details with luminescence that makes them pop in an almost holographic fashion.

 

[amirm]

You know D, when I wrote that post I had no idea that the stuff you've put up even existed, let alone was marketed for that kind of money

Fair amount of it happens in your backyard in Miami! Check out this great piece by Morley Safer of 60 minutes:

Wish I could find his original piece on youtube....

 

[RayDunzl]

So it's not enough to believe you are right? You must also prove to others that they are wrong? There is another option. Live and let live. It is just a hobby.

"The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important." - Albert J. Nock

 

[fas42]

Sorry, didn't mean to word it in such a way that it made it about you. I didn't mean to question your personal intent. It's an observation about the general vitriol exchanged between waring camps in audio. The vitriol and exchange of personal insults are often excused as a fight for a higher cause but IMO it mostly looks to me to be driven by ego. If you personally believe that ridicule towards the beliefs of certain audiophiles is a noble fight in defense of science I am not going to question your sincerity. I do question the actual effectiveness of it though.

The enjoyment of vitriol seems to be the main reason some people inhabit audio forums - to hurl abuse at those who don't share the same mindset - remarkably few are driven to explore the possibilities, or contemplate whether "there may be something in it ..."

Crazy ideas exist because the 'scientific crowd' can't get their act together; the latter is proven to me every time I have to listen to mediocre, or appalling SQ when I go to some event, or place where 'pro' or engineered sound is happening - if cars were made as badly as sound systems often come across, public transport would have won decades ago ...

 

[Blumlein 88]

When one looks at the assaults on science, climate change deniers, polititians claiming beliefs in evolution has lead to civil disorder, flat arthers on the rise, homiopathy as alternative medicine and so on there is no doubt that the fight against the propagation of pseudo scinece is an important one. I am not so convinced that ridicule towards audiophiles is really an effective means of fighting the good fight.

Doesn't need to be ridicule. Several times when investigated it was found bringing facts to the attention of people actually increases the intensity to which they believe wrongly. Or that debating misinformation with the truth increases the belief in the misinformation. Still you don't help anything by doing nothing. A better approach is hard to come by as people are very rarely convinced to change opinion via debate or even results.

Since I don't buy the idea that there is any meaningful concern over audiophiles causing any real harm by having whatever beliefs they may have, I still suspect this particular fight is more about ego than anything else.

If there is an absence of technical audio magazines then maybe someone should step up and fill the void. I don't buy the idea that subjectivist audio magazines are a direct cause for any lack of technically oriented audio magazines.

I don't recall anyone pushing the idea subjectivist audio mags are a cause for no technically oriented mags. It isn't hard to understand that technical oriented publications in any area will find a smaller audience than subjectivist publications. Even very intelligent people can't be technically well versed in every area of life. Subjectively without any background, training or special experience truly anyone can take part. Since everyone qualifies it is self evident that is many times more people than only those who have specialized knowledge or experience even including amateurs who learn a little more than a simple consumer.

JGH unintentionally (and apparently to his regret in the end) constructed a platform that said technical knowledge was insufficient and only thru subjectively experienced phenomena can we adequately describe audio gear. I don't think he intended that design be based upon subjectivity, but only description of the results. Not a big surprise that increased the potential audience well beyond that of High Fidelity and similar magazines. Various aspects of this experience became semi-codified along familiar lines like one sees with oenophiles. People believe what they hear and from a community of like minded people feel confident they have authority and credentials to disagree with anyone just based upon local personal experience. Everyone has this human tendency. Likewise the tendency for humans to have highly biased perceptual experiences while feeling no bias is involved. JGH didn't intend to throw out the science or technical understanding. It was more along the lines that simple specsmanship was missing something. He opened Pandora's box of subjectivity however.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I've been to Madrid quite a few times, but a few years ago I finally go enough free time to go to La Reina Sofia museum of modern art, where both Dali and Picasso were exhibited.

A couple of things struck me:

1. 'Guernica' is huge. Like the size of a billboard. I had no idea it was that big, or if I knew the fact at some point, it didn't register. But because it's so huge, the brush strokes are crude, slathered on. Up close, it looks rude and almost unskilled. It's only when you step back and look at it from 20+ feet away that it all gels into art and conveys horror.

2. Dali was the opposite. From a middle distance, I was a little underwhelmed, thinking his works didn't look much better than the prints thereof. But when you get closer, you realize what a master of small details he was, and you see things that the prints don't reproduce, brush strokes so fine and 3D that they scatter the light and embellish small details with luminescence that makes them pop in an almost holographic fashion.

I find this to be the case with most good art. There is some point at some angle and distance the artist intended for it to be viewed. Sometimes there are two positions usually telling a different thing at each point. Finding that point is part of understanding the artwork. I remember a tall, narrow impressionist painting done with the multiple colored dots style. It was an image of a small city near dark. From 20 ft away you felt like a traveler about to enter a city near darkness, and glad to end your day's journey. Then at about 4 feet the dots aligned differently, and you felt as if you had entered the main street of the city at twilight. Different details stood out. Gave you a feeling that this city wasn't your home and it was a foreign and perhaps slightly foreboding place.

 

[Sal1950]

"The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important." - Albert J. Nock

How perfect was that quote Ray!
In the end what can you do about a room full of grow men that still believe in Santa Claus, The Tooth Fairy, and The Boogie Man?

 

[Wombat]

Rejected comic-book artist?



I thought his(& assistants)work was 'cute' but trivial. I guess he struck it lucky.