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A video on testing the audibility of recording preamps

I must have missed the bit in the original video where it is stated "they are all the same".
There may be 2 people on ASR that have made a professional career from being studio sound engineers, and maybe none that have made classic albums. Nevertheless almost everyone is suddenly a studio expert (I'm not) or is someone who peer reviews scientific papers to check methodology! I don't really care, and am not singling anyone out - I just listen to music (live and recorded) and attempt to play a guitar! I think the Lill video just says you can record well without spending a ton, and there is the lesson for ASR folk.. :)
 
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I must have missed the bit in the original video where it is stated "they are all the same".

True. Then again, if Lill can use hyperbole so can his critics. More importantly, I think the guy makes good points in the video.

Also, what did Lill say?
 
There may be 2 people on ASR that have made a professional career from being studio sound engineers...

My "career" was mostly radio engineering and live sound. Plus a fair amount of recording live concerts, sometimes broadcast live and sometimes recorded for later. Probably a dozen or so albums, but none that anyone would have likely heard of. I did make a decent living at it, before leaving for the more lucrative (and far easier) field of software development.

I'll say this: the mic preamps, as long as they weren't clipping, were way way far down on the list of things that mattered to the quality of the recordings I made.
 
What I didn't understand from Lill's video is the part where he measures the Neve distortion/unity gain kind of thing.

Correct me if I'm wrong here:

From the curves that I see, the Neve seems to be linear until it reaches a flat point, a typical hard-clipping situation, which could also be described as a protection clipper: "I will clip anything above that or else I'll die."

Then he uses that linear-to-flat line to code a 3-line digital equivalent to "solidify" his argument by overly simplifying saturation curves into inf:1 hard knees. So he does code a 3-line hard clipper, and guess what, it sounds the same. I feel like all that was a stunt to build on a shaky argument. Who would believe that a digital hard clipper sounds vastly different from an analog one?

Using his measurements, we see that the Neve is linear up to ~25 V, which would greatly surpass the ~13 V a converter can accept (again, anything above that is just hard clipping/protection). So he kind of structures his argument around this easily reproducible hard-clipping/protection situation.

My question is: are all preamps linear until they flatten out and hard clip? Because even if the amps had a pad or an output knob to lower the final output, the hard knee is still there. Aren't there more mellow S-curves/softer knees before reaching the flat line, which have different sweet spots ("character")?

If we have to assume that we don't have clippers with softer knees and everything is a hard-kneed Z clipper (maybe even talking about line amps here), we are kind of stripped of the tools we have to control dynamic range. Compressors suck at controlling dynamic range. They sound like garbage, and when you try to contain peaks as fast as you can, they click. Whoever has touched an analog compressor knows that, unless you delay the input and make it act with lookahead, or maybe compress reverse signals. They are OK when attacks are open, and they can bring the RMS closer to the peaks, but that's about it, and it's not always what's needed. That's why some people clip before they compress, to feed the compressor an easier signal. Generally, in my opinion, it's much more pleasant to listen to clipper/saturator artifacts than compressors working, pumping, or clicking.

Moreover, I think Jim Lill is a bit of a Nashville-tunnel-vision kind of guy. That's proven by his all-new channel, "What X Really Sounds Like," where X is a band or something. The first episode I saw was about Metallica... I mean... He starts by saying, "I know a lot about 1–2 genres and close to nothing about many genres," and it kind of shows.

He states that distorting the signal on the input is an "anomaly." Well, maybe in Nashville it is, but we have a whole '90s techno/rave scene that crunched everything (909s, 808s, 303s, chords, whatever) through cheap Mackie consoles and Portastudios, and people still sweat listening to these tracks played on huge sound systems. What about reggae/dub? Lee Perry? King Tubby? Clearly audible distortion pretty much everywhere. One minute into Scientist - The Best Dub Album In The World, you can hear a synth distorting all the way through, and that's the '80s.

Generally, I appreciate Lill's video, but I feel that this part should be stated as an assumption. Assumptions happen everywhere in scientific work; they are a tool to help us continue our work and reach a later stage by taking something for granted, but they do reduce the strength of the thesis. I feel like he structured this part very carefully, almost to the point of manipulation, so his argument wouldn't lose credibility. Maybe he was just too deep into his work and had to somehow get around that.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong.
 
So he kind of structures his argument around this easily reproducible hard-clipping/protection situation.
And he has to do that, or else there might be differences, in which case why make the video? He needs a myth to bust.

My question is: are all preamps linear until they flatten out and hard clip? Because even if the amps had a pad or an output knob to lower the final output, the hard knee is still there. Aren't there more mellow S-curves/softer knees before reaching the flat line, which have different sweet spots ("character")?
Some would argue then that the class-A Neve is the type of pre that people actually talk about when they talk about a "Neve sound", and that it colors the sound before hard-clipping. Yet I guess he used a class-A/B instead.

Also: where does tracking to tape fit into this? Again, he said that "Mathematically, objectively, every single time in the past, present or future that an engineer has ever tracked through a Neve with no converters clipping and faders at unity it is not possible for there to ever be or have ever been Neve distortion. That means that distortion cannot be an ingredient in the Neve sound". Doesn't that leave wide open the possibilities of a) not leaving faders at unity and b) not tracking to converters, but to tape...? The latter possibly also leads to the former.
 
And he has to do that, or else there might be differences, in which case why make the video? He needs a myth to bust.
That's my understanding as well...


Some would argue then that the class-A Neve is the type of pre that people actually talk about when they talk about a "Neve sound", and that it colors the sound before hard-clipping. Yet I guess he used a class-A/B instead.
I think someone needs to measure this; it would be a very helpful piece of information.

a) not leaving faders at unity and b) not tracking to converters, but to tape...?
But even if that was true, since the neve that he's testing is a 1:1 and then inf:1 clipping action, the pad/output-knob/fader wouldn't do anything as the signal would've been hard clipped internally way before reaching the tape. At least based on these measurements from the video:

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It's crucial for me to understand whether we've trained our ears to hard-clipping and we are using EQs to pre-emphasize things that want to get hard-clipped first and it's how we produce tone, or there are amps that soft-clip and provide a larger sweetspot. Your comment on 1073s and A/B is very close to this.
 
Wow, Jim Lill was right, people will be mad. So apparently that wasn't "click bait".
To anyone who wants to comment on this thread, please actually watch the entire video before doing so.
Jim Lill is on our (ASR) side in what he does. He asks "Why?, show me how, prove it" rather than just accepting commonly held assumptions about sound and tone in electrical musical equipment. Are some of his findings or methods questionable? Perhaps, perhaps not, but at least he's asking the questions and trying to find answers in a methodical and logical manner.
 
I think someone needs to measure this; it would be a very helpful piece of information.
It's in the other videos that I posted.
But even if that was true, since the neve that he's testing is a 1:1 and then inf:1 clipping action, the pad/output-knob/fader wouldn't do anything as the signal would've been hard clipped internally way before reaching the tape.
I think you misunderstand what my point is.

My point is that Lill builds his entire video on a really narrow premise, and even that premise doesn't necessarily hold true. He wrote that "Mathematically, objectively, every single time in the past, present or future that an engineer has ever tracked through a Neve with no converters clipping and faders at unity it is not possible for there to ever be or have ever been Neve distortion."

There are two caveats there, highlighted by me. (1) no converters clipping and (2) faders at unity. What if either isn't true? If you're tracking to tape you're not going to be hitting converters directly, which means that you can allow for other levels without your converters clipping (because you're not using them).

And either way, it simply cannot lead to the conclusion that "That means that distortion cannot be an ingredient in the Neve sound". Sorry, but, what? If there is such a thing as "the Neve sound" why would that not be because of distortion under other conditions?
 
Wow, Jim Lill was right, people will be mad. So apparently that wasn't "click bait".

It was. But tell me, what are people mad about exactly? That his thesis is correct or because its tiresome to see people fall for these myth-busting nonsense? In fact, aren't you playing right into his hands by saying people "are mad"? Is it really that people are "mad" even? Is that the right sentiment?

To anyone who wants to comment on this thread, please actually watch the entire video before doing so.

Done. How about addressing the issues pointed out?

Jim Lill is on our (ASR) side in what he does. He asks "Why?, show me how, prove it" rather than just accepting commonly held assumptions about sound and tone in electrical musical equipment. Are some of his findings or methods questionable? Perhaps, perhaps not, but at least he's asking the questions and trying to find answers in a methodical and logical manner.

I showed how some of his "methods" or reasoning was illogical. Thoughts?
 
Wow, Jim Lill was right, people will be mad. So apparently that wasn't "click bait".
To anyone who wants to comment on this thread, please actually watch the entire video before doing so.
Jim Lill is on our (ASR) side in what he does. He asks "Why?, show me how, prove it" rather than just accepting commonly held assumptions about sound and tone in electrical musical equipment. Are some of his findings or methods questionable? Perhaps, perhaps not, but at least he's asking the questions and trying to find answers in a methodical and logical manner.
It's more important to blether on in a d!ck contest than to make your own videos.
 
My point is that Lill builds his entire video on a really narrow premise
That does hold true, and while i don't 100% understand what you say next it proves that there are many points that create second thoughts for other people as well. Not only my view.

It's in the other videos that I posted.
hmm gonna search for them right now

Wow, Jim Lill was right, people will be mad. So apparently that wasn't "click bait".
Personally I'm fascinated by all this, the discussion the opinions etc. I'm a facts/science person, I've written peer-reviewed papers and done many case-studies in my field so I know how to support something entirely true, something half true, or how to base something on an assumption. Not really the case here but not entirely irrelevant.

The main question I'm asking is whether we have measurements of amplifiers with curves other than inf:1 / or linear -> hard-clip. So if you know something about it I would be so glad if you'd share.

I wish I was qualified and had the knowledge to test my preamps for all that, I would even do it if someone qualified enough would guide me, but sadly I'm not..

I like Jim's video a lot and the conversation around it, but I will not swallow information until I've done my own research as I've done with anything in my life. Is this forum the best place or way to do this? maybe yes, maybe not.. but I'm trying. I hope you're not mistaking this as being "mad"..
 

That video might be interesting as a rebuttal to the video in the OP.
I see a principle problem in his frequency response tests. They show several spikes, at 15 Hz, 50 Hz (mains), 150 Hz (mains) and some noise in the lower frequencies. I don't think it invalidates the data but there is something wrong.
EDIT: the person in the video goes through some of the various claims Lill makes in his video and does his own testing to see if the claims seem reasonable. He points out that;

- Lill used a 31105 class-A/B preamp rather than a class-A 1073, claiming that the 1073 can color a signal more because of that different design.
That was the claim by DIY Recording, not by Lill.
- He then shows results from two of his Neve preamps. He gives a time-domain plot showing the response differing based on input and output levels.
This is not so clear. He said so but I think he changed the gain as well, and this changed the frequency response. I haven't seen a preamp yet which changes its frequency response depending on the input level, at least not close to clipping.
- He shows how impedance changes the tonal balance.
This may also depend more on the output impedance of the source and not the input impedance of the preamp. Do we know the former?
- He shows that even just enabling the EQ circuit in the 1073 affects the signal even with the individual bands at unity.
I would call this bad engineering, but the effect is very subtle, and knowing that you engage the EQ to use it it probably doesn't matter.

So we have two videos, one measuring the Neve 31105 and a Focusrite, and one measuring the Neve 1073. These are two different models, so one cannot use one video to claim the measurements of the other video are wrong (in both directions). Since Neve made many different preamps and probably minor alterations over time neither Lill nor DIY Recording can claim that all Neve preamps have a special sound or not.

- He reiterates that engineers overdrive circuits and make that added gain up by lowering the output "all the time", and that just because Lill says he's not experienced output at unity and input brought up without distortion so as to not clip converters does not mean that what others do is 'not a thing'.
Since I'm just an amateur regarding mixing and mastering I have no clue what pros did in the 70s or today. I know that in my recordings I never let the preamp clip, ever. I had no Neve back then, of course. And today with a digital mixer I don't either.
 
That was the claim by DIY Recording, not by Lill.

Absolutely. In my brain each bullet point connected to "He points out that;", including that part of the sentence. So I didn't mean to attribute that to Lill. I'd change the post but I think I'm no longer able to (?) edit it. Anyway, thanks for pointing that out.

This may also depend more on the output impedance of the source and not the input impedance of the preamp. Do we know the former?

I don't.

I would call this bad engineering, but the effect is very subtle, and knowing that you engage the EQ to use it it probably doesn't matter.

Sure, I don't disagree with that. The only thing I'd add is that in total, on a large set of signals, it obviously makes a difference. And looking at the console as a tool of choice it may very well have been one of those things that made some people gravitate toward one console over another.

So we have two videos, one measuring the Neve 31105 and a Focusrite, and one measuring the Neve 1073. These are two different models, so one cannot use one video to claim the measurements of the other video are wrong (in both directions). Since Neve made many different preamps and probably minor alterations over time neither Lill nor DIY Recording can claim that all Neve preamps have a special sound or not.

Well, again, I think the claim Lill tries to imply is that "the Neve sound" simply doesn't exist. I posted that video to show that some people have looked at Neve pres and found that they aren't entirely flat depending on several parameters. Lill wrote (Premise) "Mathematically, objectively, every single time in the past, present or future that an engineer has ever tracked through a Neve with no converters clipping and faders at unity it is not possible for there to ever be or have ever been Neve distortion." (and now conclusion) "That means that distortion cannot be an ingredient in the Neve sound".

But as I said before, to the extent an engineer in the past or present feels that there is a "Neve sound" it could be because of distortion because a) they might not set the input output levels the way he says people do and b) because they might be using a different version Neve amp with different characteristics which in turn could mean that rather than 'hard-clipping' the distortion could be more gradual.

Since I'm just an amateur regarding mixing and mastering I have no clue what pros did in the 70s or today. I know that in my recordings I never let the preamp clip, ever. I had no Neve back then, of course. And today with a digital mixer I don't either.

Sure. To each their own.
 
I haven't watched this refutation video, but I've found other videos from this guy to be pretty sensible:
I watched it, and also the video by MAJETONE where he demonstrates the influence of impedance on sound. Both use different microphone recordings (speech and hitting a snare drum) which is of course flawed, as nobody can speak the same sentence or hit a snare drum exactly identical.

MEJETONE shows a bunch of overlapping frequency responses in a band which is 5 dB broad or bigger, and then claimes frequency response is the same - sorry it's not.
He also shows that with 1MOhm load the snare rings longer than with 8 kOhm, and I can hear it. However I'm very sure this is caused by the internals of the microphone and not the preamp itsself (as I wrote in my post above). Or he just hit the snare once dead center and once a little off center. Also I don't think that his preamp really has 1 MOhm impedance at all, since he uses a switchable resistor bank in parallel to the preamps input. The real impedance of the preamp input is the upper limit and certainly much smaller, except if he modified it and measured it.

Andrew Chapman argues that pros use preamps close to clipping and I don't dispute this. What he says about impact on frequency response regarding single tones and real music though is just wrong. As long as the preamp does not distort supervision of many signals is linear and has no effect on sound. If you go into clipping or compression then all bets are off as the distortion components get so high that one can no longer measure a valid frequency response at all.
 
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I wish I was qualified and had the knowledge to test my preamps for all that, I would even do it if someone qualified enough would guide me, but sadly I'm not..
A simple sound interface suffices. Plug its output to the preamp input and its input to the preamp output. Get free REW and measure the frequency response, using its signal generator for sweeps and its RTA window to show the frequency response. Do the same without the preamp in the chain as reference.
 
What runner this thread is! Weasels!
 
A simple sound interface suffices. Plug its output to the preamp input and its input to the preamp output. Get free REW and measure the frequency response, using its signal generator for sweeps and its RTA window to show the frequency response. Do the same without the preamp in the chain as reference.
Yea I know how to REW loopback my card and it's easy to have a preamp in the middle and run a sweep but what I want to try is, based on db of amplification what is the harmonic content generation and where do my preamps saturate or start to saturate and with what kind of knee...
 
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