A two grand tube buffer any good to you? :)

[Westsounds]

Just stumbled across a video on YT ‘The One Audio Gear I’ll Never Sell! - Hi-Fi Cave’. I won't link it here because every time I do that I seem to get told off. It’s the only site this happens to me on but, anyway. This guy loves this thing, and he is singing its praises and using it in some serious systems to good effect. But we are just sticking valves (TOOBES) in the signal of course they are going to add harmonics and colour the sound, I don’t understand why you need to pay 2 grand for the privilege. Am I alone in thinking this?

Tube buffers/amps have been around for a long time, certainly don't have to cost 2 grand or am I missing something here.

CryoTone™ Tube Conditioner Pro

The CryoTone Tube Conditioner Pro is designed as a two channel analog signal conditioner.Its magic is both subtle and dramatic. The CTC's circuit is designed to not cast coloration or heavy saturation.By building those options into the circuit, sound quality is lost. The CTC Pro has no OP amps...

wathenspeakers.com

 

[eddantes]

If you need harmonic distortion - YES! Though certainly you can have that for far less. For all other reasons - no.

 

[DVDdoug]

But we are just sticking valves (TOOBES) in the signal of course they are going to add harmonics and colour the sound

Maybe. An audibly perfect line-level buffer is one of the easiest things to build. It doesn't cost any more to add distortion, if that's what you want. Most people don't want added distortion... High Fidelity means "highly faithful" or "accurate" reproduction.

But a buffer is essentially an impedance-lowering circuit (ignoring any "desirable" distortion/defects) and you probably don't need one, and solid state is more suited for that purpose if you do need one. In fact, a tube buffer is likely to have higher output impedance than solid state so it could be doing the opposite of what a buffer should do.

A buffer is an easy thing to build, and even easier to build, with an op-amp. It's one of the easiest things you can make with an op-amp. Tube power amps are a lot more difficult and expensive because of the output transformer (required for the low impedance speaker load).

Tube buffers/amps have been around for a long time, certainly don't have to cost 2 grand or am I missing something here.

It's probably not too far out-of-line when you consider that tubes are more expensive than solid state components, you need a higher voltage power supply, and they are manufactured and distributed in small quantities, and sold as a specialty item. Plus, a higher price makes the product MORE appealing in the "audiophile marketplace".

I don’t understand why you need to pay 2 grand for the privilege. Am I alone in thinking this?

No... This isn't 1955 and tubes are dumb!

There are tube simulator plug-ins but they are intended to be used with a DAW in audio production rather than reproduction. Guiter players tend to favor tube amps for they way they sound when over-driven into distortion/saturation. And amp/cabinet "sims" are popular when recording guitar, and sometimes the mixing engineer will use a tiny bit of distortion on the vocals too, but you (usually) don't want the whole band to sound like that.

 

[Westsounds]

No... This isn't 1955 and tubes are dumb!

There are tube simulator plug-ins but they are intended to be used with a DAW in audio production rather than reproduction. Guiter players tend to favor tube amps for they way they sound when over-driven into distortion/saturation. And amp/cabinet "sims" are popular when recording guitar, and sometimes the mixing engineer will use a tiny bit of distortion on the vocals too, but you (usually) don't want the whole band to sound like that.

This is such a great point and one I have been aware of for some time in various forms. Solid state or digital as more and more amplifiers are becoming now are far better at amplification than any tube amp can do it, and for a massive difference in value for money as well as energy consumption. As you rightly say the harmonics can be added if you really want them there by a processed means. The way technology has advanced it really isn’t difficult to find software, plugins, VSTs or whatever to do it as good as and often on the fly to suit as well. There’s even a number of DACs out there now which add harmonics like tubes do in the settings, but It's still not the same as running the signal through those glowing tubes and for some it is only the way they want it and believe is better. Listening to those guys in that video is comical, yes you are changing the sound, it's going to sound different, it’s an effect after all. But we get the subjective drivel as well, so much more depth, layering, separation

 

[Soandso]

That extraordinarily expensive unit is apparently due to the product manufacturer's super low temperature component processing method. [There is another recent ASR thread about cryogenics, materials and sound.]

Quote (from O.P.'s link) =

 

[DVDdoug]

As you rightly say the harmonics can be added if you really want them there by a processed means. The way technology has advanced it really isn’t difficult to find software, plugins, VSTs or whatever to do it as good as and often on the fly to suit as well.

There is a BIG ADVANTAGE to DSP in-that you can tweak it to the sound you like and there are usually free trials so you don't have physically find and to listen to a bunch of tube amps to find one you prefer. Plug-ins are usually cheaper than a real tube amp an some are even free.

The BIG DOWNSIDE is that you need a computer in your processing chain and some kind of host application for the plug-ins so it's not easy or convenient.

 

[kemmler3D]

Even if you need to buy a whole computer to run it, you can get plenty of tube style harmonic distortion much cheaper: https://www.waves.com/plugins/scheps-omni-channel ... $40 and no voodoo nonsense about cryogenic treatment. This one gets some good mentions on Reddit.

This kind of DSP is among the most popular in the recording / mixing world, there are heaps of free and paid options.

It's a valid (in the sense of being logically supportable) opinion that everything should have more distortion on it than they initially put in the recording, just not one I happen to share.

However, adding distortion is not an "antidote" to digital sources any more than 4 glasses of wine is an antidote to speaking clearly. This concept of selling ultra-hifi products that only serve to add distortion is like driving with the parking brake on in your sports car for extra road feel.

 

[levimax]

Apparently this does not add any audible noise or distortion or alter the frequency response but it does add dynamics, 3d sound stage, richness, body, and detail. Sounds like magic to me.... which is what people that buy these things are looking for.


The CryoTone™ Tube conditioned sound:
· Does not add distortion or alter frequency response
· The dynamics are vastly improved
· There is a 3 dimensional sound stage
· Unmatched sound quality of the CryoTone™ Tubes
· Great Signal/Noise ratio
· Frequency response is flat
· The conditioner adds richness
· Adds body and detail to midrange and bass


Input impedance 470 KOhms
Output impedance < 200 Ohms
T.H.D. < 0.002% 10Hz-100KHz
Frequency response +/- 0.2dB 10Hz-100KHz
S/N ratio better than -100dB Unweighted, better than -118dB 'A' Weighted

 

[Westsounds]

BIG DOWNSIDE is that you need a computer in your processing chain and some kind of host application for the plug-ins so it's not easy or convenient.

Not really a downside. It's been my main source for decades now anyway. I don't have a cd player, well I do but they're thick with dust

Even if you need to buy a whole computer to run it, you can get plenty of tube style harmonic distortion much cheaper: https://www.waves.com/plugins/scheps-omni-channel ... $40 and no voodoo nonsense about cryogenic treatment. This one gets some good mentions on Reddit.

This kind of DSP is among the most popular in the recording / mixing world, there are heaps of free and paid options.

It's a valid (in the sense of being logically supportable) opinion that everything should have more distortion on it than they initially put in the recording, just not one I happen to share.

However, adding distortion is not an "antidote" to digital sources any more than 4 glasses of wine is an antidote to speaking clearly. This concept of selling ultra-hifi products that only serve to add distortion is like driving with the parking brake on in your sports car for extra road feel.

Absolutely this.

And great analogys at the end.

There's another company out there which has one of the most expensive DACs, who shamelessly need an upscaler (optional) and fancy cable to be able to hear it at its best. Got to be one of the worse expensive propositions in hifi that.

 

[Westsounds]

Apparently this does not add any audible noise or distortion or alter the frequency response but it does add dynamics, 3d sound stage, richness, body, and detail. Sounds like magic to me.... which is what people that buy these things are looking for.


The CryoTone™ Tube conditioned sound:
· Does not add distortion or alter frequency response
· The dynamics are vastly improved
· There is a 3 dimensional sound stage
· Unmatched sound quality of the CryoTone™ Tubes
· Great Signal/Noise ratio
· Frequency response is flat
· The conditioner adds richness
· Adds body and detail to midrange and bass


Input impedance 470 KOhms
Output impedance < 200 Ohms
T.H.D. < 0.002% 10Hz-100KHz
Frequency response +/- 0.2dB 10Hz-100KHz
S/N ratio better than -100dB Unweighted, better than -118dB 'A' Weighted

That's some laundry list. Perhaps in the small print you have to have cold plunges every morning as well for best results

 

[RexrothPigeon]

it does add dynamics, 3d sound stage, richness, body, and detail.

Where do these desirable qualities come from if not distortion and frequency response?

Spoiler

(copywriters' imagination)

 

[levimax]

Where do these desirable qualities come from if not distortion and frequency response?

Spoiler

(copywriters' imagination)

magic?

 

[kemmler3D]

Where do these desirable qualities come from if not distortion and frequency response?

Spoiler

(copywriters' imagination)

It's possible to do compression or expansion (or both) without harmonic distortion or changes to steady state FR. This could create a 'sweet' sound if done well. But in this case, I have no idea what it's actually supposed to do except look pretty in your rig.

 

[Westsounds]

Watch the video on YT The One Audio Gear I’ll Never Sell! - Hi-Fi Cave’. You will see the magic show

They are listening to the effect of the 2 grand box in line and turning it into superlative nonsense, while labelling it an upgrade / improvement on the sound and quality. I guess if you convince yourself enough and it's pleasing to you, it is right. Just like magic Even if it's BS (Bad Science )