• Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

A Thorough Examination of Shunyata Research’s Medical Device Claims

Interesting thread. If you need to minimize AC noise then using shielded power cables and power strips can make sense. You could also filter some high frequency noise out of the mains to further reduce noise radiation. Equipment that could benefit from that would have to be extremely sensitive tho, so I don't really understand how this applies to audio reproduction.
 
Hi, I am a cardiac electrophysiologist and director of our EP labs. I’ve known Grant since about 2016. He reached out to me regarding the current discussion since we worked together evaluating CIS products in our lab. I have no financial relationships with Shunyata or CIS.

Just for background, in the EP lab we evaluate low level electrical signals in the heart using specialized catheters and recording systems, at times looking at signal amplitudes as low as 0.1 mV or even less. In the EP lab EMI is common due to the large amount of equipment as well as being connected to the hospital electrical grid. Noise is the enemy of good signal analysis at these levels and having a low noise floor is critical. After hearing from another EP physician, I reached out to Grant. We were having noise in one of our labs as high as 0.1 to 0.15mV at the time. He made a trip to our lab to trial an early CIS unit. After Our biomed engineering team evaluated and approved the unit for our use as per their standard for any new equipment that comes into the hospital, we were able to reduce our noise floor to less than 0.01 mV and this was a consistent result.

I am also aware that Shunyata/CIS contracted with Biosense Webster R&D in 2018 to evaluate the CIS units. I independently confirmed this during conversations with individuals at BSW. We did not publish data or papers on these findings, but the difference CIS products made were observable and allowed us to more easily do our work.
 
That’s all very nice but you are obviously aware that your statement does not equate to validity without evidence
 
Hi, I am a cardiac electrophysiologist and director of our EP labs. I’ve known Grant since about 2016. He reached out to me regarding the current discussion since we worked together evaluating CIS products in our lab. I have no financial relationships with Shunyata or CIS.

Just for background, in the EP lab we evaluate low level electrical signals in the heart using specialized catheters and recording systems, at times looking at signal amplitudes as low as 0.1 mV or even less. In the EP lab EMI is common due to the large amount of equipment as well as being connected to the hospital electrical grid. Noise is the enemy of good signal analysis at these levels and having a low noise floor is critical. After hearing from another EP physician, I reached out to Grant. We were having noise in one of our labs as high as 0.1 to 0.15mV at the time. He made a trip to our lab to trial an early CIS unit. After Our biomed engineering team evaluated and approved the unit for our use as per their standard for any new equipment that comes into the hospital, we were able to reduce our noise floor to less than 0.01 mV and this was a consistent result.

I am also aware that Shunyata/CIS contracted with Biosense Webster R&D in 2018 to evaluate the CIS units. I independently confirmed this during conversations with individuals at BSW. We did not publish data or papers on these findings, but the difference CIS products made were observable and allowed us to more easily do our work.

I fail to see why any data, collected in the mentioned course taken, can't be published. Hearing from, and reaching out to - is something I would abstain from mentioning.
Granted, that is my opinion.
 
Hi, I am a cardiac electrophysiologist and director of our EP labs. I’ve known Grant since about 2016. He reached out to me regarding the current discussion since we worked together evaluating CIS products in our lab. I have no financial relationships with Shunyata or CIS.

Just for background, in the EP lab we evaluate low level electrical signals in the heart using specialized catheters and recording systems, at times looking at signal amplitudes as low as 0.1 mV or even less. In the EP lab EMI is common due to the large amount of equipment as well as being connected to the hospital electrical grid. Noise is the enemy of good signal analysis at these levels and having a low noise floor is critical. After hearing from another EP physician, I reached out to Grant. We were having noise in one of our labs as high as 0.1 to 0.15mV at the time. He made a trip to our lab to trial an early CIS unit. After Our biomed engineering team evaluated and approved the unit for our use as per their standard for any new equipment that comes into the hospital, we were able to reduce our noise floor to less than 0.01 mV and this was a consistent result.

I am also aware that Shunyata/CIS contracted with Biosense Webster R&D in 2018 to evaluate the CIS units. I independently confirmed this during conversations with individuals at BSW. We did not publish data or papers on these findings, but the difference CIS products made were observable and allowed us to more easily do our work.

What equipment were/are you using for the catheters and recording systems? Brands and model names, if you have them.

What exact changes did you make? Did you make any other changes besides the power conditioner? Did you move any equipment when you made the change? Did you try any other cables or even just other power outlets?

Did you document any of these measurements of the noise before and after?

FWIW, many posters on here are electrical engineers. I spent my career working in an electrical engineering lab absolutely filled with gear (scopes, meters, PCs, monitors, TVs, signal generators, modulators, demodulators, video test gear, audio test gear, etc). Every single bench in the lab was provided a cable video feed, a satellite video feed, and an ethernet feed. We often dealt with signals in the uV levels, and even below that. Not once did we ever find a piece of equipment where swapping out a power cable made even the tiniest difference. Not once did we find a piece of equipment that needed a power conditioner in order to reduce noise.
 
Last edited:
I glean from both responses by individuals connected with this equipment and it's testing that none of the results are "official". Therefore, no actual hard data will be forthcoming. Looks like the standard audiophool playbook is being followed, what a surprise! Signals in the microvolt range are hardly rare and in the business of precision electrical measurement and the equipment employed, 0.01V is a fairly stout level. Signals in this range can be measured accurately by professional equipment in the noisiest of electrical environments provided adequate precautions are taken. Furthermore, if there is the possibility of a critical measurement being influenced by random EMI, those measurements should be made in an appropriately shielded room (Faraday cage).

As far as medical equipment is concerned, EMI is taken seriously as it can undoubtedly affect medical equipment. From a brief amount of research, it would appear that the bulk of the threat comes from emissive EMI rather than conducted EMI. Unsurprisingly, the main culprit is the mobile phone and unless I miss my guess, it was the advent of the GSM system and the ugly sawtooth it used to transmit that made a ban on mobile phones near patient monitoring equipment necessary. Happily, GSM has gone the way of the covered wagon.

What surprises me is that outfits like Shunyata seem to think that their snake oil tactics are immune to scrutiny and require no verifiable proof. I figure they are filled with confidence after fooling many hundreds if not thousands of people who accept the voodoo claims connected to their audio products. New member kemoraud, would you care to share some pictures of your lab and maybe some before and after measurements?
 
I glean from both responses by individuals connected with this equipment and it's testing that none of the results are "official". Therefore, no actual hard data will be forthcoming. Looks like the standard audiophool playbook is being followed, what a surprise! Signals in the microvolt range are hardly rare and in the business of precision electrical measurement and the equipment employed, 0.01V is a fairly stout level. Signals in this range can be measured accurately by professional equipment in the noisiest of electrical environments provided adequate precautions are taken. Furthermore, if there is the possibility of a critical measurement being influenced by random EMI, those measurements should be made in an appropriately shielded room (Faraday cage).

As far as medical equipment is concerned, EMI is taken seriously as it can undoubtedly affect medical equipment. From a brief amount of research, it would appear that the bulk of the threat comes from emissive EMI rather than conducted EMI. Unsurprisingly, the main culprit is the mobile phone and unless I miss my guess, it was the advent of the GSM system and the ugly sawtooth it used to transmit that made a ban on mobile phones near patient monitoring equipment necessary. Happily, GSM has gone the way of the covered wagon.

What surprises me is that outfits like Shunyata seem to think that their snake oil tactics are immune to scrutiny and require no verifiable proof. I figure they are filled with confidence after fooling many hundreds if not thousands of people who accept the voodoo claims connected to their audio products. New member kemoraud, would you care to share some pictures of your lab and maybe some before and after measurements?
This is the company that was mentioned on this thread by kemoraud

...I am also aware that Shunyata/CIS contracted with Biosense Webster R&D in 2018 to evaluate the CIS units. I independently confirmed this during conversations with individuals at BSW. We did not publish data or papers on these findings, but the difference CIS products made were observable and allowed us to more easily do our work.


Not a good look. Hence I recommended to stay out of it - as far as possible.

Biosense1.JPG
 
The kind of juicy thread that can only be found on ASR.
addendum: who tf calls their company by an acronym like 'CIS' these days
 
Hi, I am a cardiac electrophysiologist and director of our EP labs. I’ve known Grant since about 2016. He reached out to me regarding the current discussion since we worked together evaluating CIS products in our lab. I have no financial relationships with Shunyata or CIS.

Just for background, in the EP lab we evaluate low level electrical signals in the heart using specialized catheters and recording systems, at times looking at signal amplitudes as low as 0.1 mV or even less. In the EP lab EMI is common due to the large amount of equipment as well as being connected to the hospital electrical grid. Noise is the enemy of good signal analysis at these levels and having a low noise floor is critical. After hearing from another EP physician, I reached out to Grant. We were having noise in one of our labs as high as 0.1 to 0.15mV at the time. He made a trip to our lab to trial an early CIS unit. After Our biomed engineering team evaluated and approved the unit for our use as per their standard for any new equipment that comes into the hospital, we were able to reduce our noise floor to less than 0.01 mV and this was a consistent result.

I am also aware that Shunyata/CIS contracted with Biosense Webster R&D in 2018 to evaluate the CIS units. I independently confirmed this during conversations with individuals at BSW. We did not publish data or papers on these findings, but the difference CIS products made were observable and allowed us to more easily do our work.
very cool that you would sign up to an audio forum just to post this testimonial
 
…also made a similar post like this over on audiophile Reddit, and that post became popular enough for at least one reader to have told me they sent it to Shunyata for comment.

My Reddit post has now been deleted by “Reddit filters”. I’m not a clever man, but even I could put two and two together. Anyway, Shunyata et al can try to avoid me all they want, but wheels are rolling now that they cannot stop.

Truly outstanding research!!

I have been in Medical Labs for decades and your research, I repeat, is absolutely excellent!
 
About their "designer", found on their website:

"Caelin Gabriel is a former US military research scientist with a background in the research and design of ultra-sensitive data acquisition systems. These systems were designed to detect extremely low-level signals otherwise obscured by random noise, requiring years of intensive research into the sources and effects of signal and power-line noise interference.

Gabriel’s subsequent work experience involved development of high-speed networking devices including the 1GB/s fibre-channel interface and the present 100MB/s and 1GB/s ethernet devices. These unique work-related experiences were at the highest levels of government and computer science. This extensive design background led Gabriel to develop the fundamental design concepts for the patented technologies, measurements and custom-designed parts that form the cornerstone of the Clear Image Scientific product range.

Gabriel holds more than 10 patents, with numerous additional patents-pending. These technical innovations have earned Gabriel’s product designs professional endorsements from heart surgeons and hospitals across the United States.

Gabriel continues to advance his development of new technologies, parts design and patented science, keeping Clear Image Scientific at the forefront of its field."

Don't know whether to laugh or vomit.
 
I would have had expected some comment by @Timcognito ...
Somehow I missed this thread. Very interesting and not not my experience that included 35yrs in nine startups in Interventional Cardiology, Cardiac Surgery, Pulmonology, Thoracoscopic/Laparoscopic Surgery devices most having to with methods, procedures, therapeutic and delivery devices and implants, allowing me to be listed as inventor/co-inventor 100+ US patents with very little electronics and few Electrophysiology devices. My education and degree in Mechanical Engineering had very little EE in it and I now know alot about cardiac physiology and function. Audio has been passion and hobby since the 1970's

I did work on a whole body hypothermia device that showed very promising results in ameliorating the negative affects of Myocardial Infarction but it's success required early initiation which meant the first responder would have to put in large central line cooling catheter in the patients IVC connected a large refrigeration cold saline pumping apparatus. I mention this because that machine was required to meet many rigorous tests to meet specifications of IEC 60601 and others so it could be used in the Catheterization Lab and not disrupt the sensors and montors there, were it was used with verying amounts of effication. Those tests and specs were a very high bar that the claimed expertise of Shunyata Rearch maybe had some expertise.
 
The musical conditioning version(s) cost several thousands of US$.

IMG_6004.jpeg



IMG_6007.jpeg




IMG_6006.jpeg




IMG_6009.jpeg
 
However, they have claims by Dr. Daniel P. Melby, MD, Medical Director, Minneapolis Heart Institute, and this person exists.
 
However, they have claims by Dr. Daniel P. Melby, MD, Medical Director, Minneapolis Heart Institute, and this person exists.
Anywhere outside of Shunyata Research’s own marketing materials?
 
I'm obviously not talking about the name, I'm talking about the claims he allegedly made.

If they put fabricated claims on their web site then this would be quite damning, of course—but it would be also quite risky for them.
One can always send an email to Dr. Daniel Melby and ask whether he made those claims.
 
Back
Top Bottom