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A Thorough Examination of Shunyata Research’s Medical Device Claims

Interesting thread. If you need to minimize AC noise then using shielded power cables and power strips can make sense. You could also filter some high frequency noise out of the mains to further reduce noise radiation. Equipment that could benefit from that would have to be extremely sensitive tho, so I don't really understand how this applies to audio reproduction.
 
Hi, I am a cardiac electrophysiologist and director of our EP labs. I’ve known Grant since about 2016. He reached out to me regarding the current discussion since we worked together evaluating CIS products in our lab. I have no financial relationships with Shunyata or CIS.

Just for background, in the EP lab we evaluate low level electrical signals in the heart using specialized catheters and recording systems, at times looking at signal amplitudes as low as 0.1 mV or even less. In the EP lab EMI is common due to the large amount of equipment as well as being connected to the hospital electrical grid. Noise is the enemy of good signal analysis at these levels and having a low noise floor is critical. After hearing from another EP physician, I reached out to Grant. We were having noise in one of our labs as high as 0.1 to 0.15mV at the time. He made a trip to our lab to trial an early CIS unit. After Our biomed engineering team evaluated and approved the unit for our use as per their standard for any new equipment that comes into the hospital, we were able to reduce our noise floor to less than 0.01 mV and this was a consistent result.

I am also aware that Shunyata/CIS contracted with Biosense Webster R&D in 2018 to evaluate the CIS units. I independently confirmed this during conversations with individuals at BSW. We did not publish data or papers on these findings, but the difference CIS products made were observable and allowed us to more easily do our work.
 
That’s all very nice but you are obviously aware that your statement does not equate to validity without evidence
 
Hi, I am a cardiac electrophysiologist and director of our EP labs. I’ve known Grant since about 2016. He reached out to me regarding the current discussion since we worked together evaluating CIS products in our lab. I have no financial relationships with Shunyata or CIS.

Just for background, in the EP lab we evaluate low level electrical signals in the heart using specialized catheters and recording systems, at times looking at signal amplitudes as low as 0.1 mV or even less. In the EP lab EMI is common due to the large amount of equipment as well as being connected to the hospital electrical grid. Noise is the enemy of good signal analysis at these levels and having a low noise floor is critical. After hearing from another EP physician, I reached out to Grant. We were having noise in one of our labs as high as 0.1 to 0.15mV at the time. He made a trip to our lab to trial an early CIS unit. After Our biomed engineering team evaluated and approved the unit for our use as per their standard for any new equipment that comes into the hospital, we were able to reduce our noise floor to less than 0.01 mV and this was a consistent result.

I am also aware that Shunyata/CIS contracted with Biosense Webster R&D in 2018 to evaluate the CIS units. I independently confirmed this during conversations with individuals at BSW. We did not publish data or papers on these findings, but the difference CIS products made were observable and allowed us to more easily do our work.

I fail to see why any data, collected in the mentioned course taken, can't be published. Hearing from, and reaching out to - is something I would abstain from mentioning.
Granted, that is my opinion.
 
Hi, I am a cardiac electrophysiologist and director of our EP labs. I’ve known Grant since about 2016. He reached out to me regarding the current discussion since we worked together evaluating CIS products in our lab. I have no financial relationships with Shunyata or CIS.

Just for background, in the EP lab we evaluate low level electrical signals in the heart using specialized catheters and recording systems, at times looking at signal amplitudes as low as 0.1 mV or even less. In the EP lab EMI is common due to the large amount of equipment as well as being connected to the hospital electrical grid. Noise is the enemy of good signal analysis at these levels and having a low noise floor is critical. After hearing from another EP physician, I reached out to Grant. We were having noise in one of our labs as high as 0.1 to 0.15mV at the time. He made a trip to our lab to trial an early CIS unit. After Our biomed engineering team evaluated and approved the unit for our use as per their standard for any new equipment that comes into the hospital, we were able to reduce our noise floor to less than 0.01 mV and this was a consistent result.

I am also aware that Shunyata/CIS contracted with Biosense Webster R&D in 2018 to evaluate the CIS units. I independently confirmed this during conversations with individuals at BSW. We did not publish data or papers on these findings, but the difference CIS products made were observable and allowed us to more easily do our work.

What equipment were/are you using for the catheters and recording systems? Brands and model names, if you have them.

What exact changes did you make? Did you make any other changes besides the power conditioner? Did you move any equipment when you made the change? Did you try any other cables or even just other power outlets?

Did you document any of these measurements of the noise before and after?

FWIW, many posters on here are electrical engineers. I spent my career working in an electrical engineering lab absolutely filled with gear (scopes, meters, PCs, monitors, TVs, signal generators, modulators, demodulators, video test gear, audio test gear, etc). Every single bench in the lab was provided a cable video feed, a satellite video feed, and an ethernet feed. We often dealt with signals in the uV levels, and even below that. Not once did we ever find a piece of equipment where swapping out a power cable made even the tiniest difference. Not once did we find a piece of equipment that needed a power conditioner in order to reduce noise.
 
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I glean from both responses by individuals connected with this equipment and it's testing that none of the results are "official". Therefore, no actual hard data will be forthcoming. Looks like the standard audiophool playbook is being followed, what a surprise! Signals in the microvolt range are hardly rare and in the business of precision electrical measurement and the equipment employed, 0.01V is a fairly stout level. Signals in this range can be measured accurately by professional equipment in the noisiest of electrical environments provided adequate precautions are taken. Furthermore, if there is the possibility of a critical measurement being influenced by random EMI, those measurements should be made in an appropriately shielded room (Faraday cage).

As far as medical equipment is concerned, EMI is taken seriously as it can undoubtedly affect medical equipment. From a brief amount of research, it would appear that the bulk of the threat comes from emissive EMI rather than conducted EMI. Unsurprisingly, the main culprit is the mobile phone and unless I miss my guess, it was the advent of the GSM system and the ugly sawtooth it used to transmit that made a ban on mobile phones near patient monitoring equipment necessary. Happily, GSM has gone the way of the covered wagon.

What surprises me is that outfits like Shunyata seem to think that their snake oil tactics are immune to scrutiny and require no verifiable proof. I figure they are filled with confidence after fooling many hundreds if not thousands of people who accept the voodoo claims connected to their audio products. New member kemoraud, would you care to share some pictures of your lab and maybe some before and after measurements?
 
I glean from both responses by individuals connected with this equipment and it's testing that none of the results are "official". Therefore, no actual hard data will be forthcoming. Looks like the standard audiophool playbook is being followed, what a surprise! Signals in the microvolt range are hardly rare and in the business of precision electrical measurement and the equipment employed, 0.01V is a fairly stout level. Signals in this range can be measured accurately by professional equipment in the noisiest of electrical environments provided adequate precautions are taken. Furthermore, if there is the possibility of a critical measurement being influenced by random EMI, those measurements should be made in an appropriately shielded room (Faraday cage).

As far as medical equipment is concerned, EMI is taken seriously as it can undoubtedly affect medical equipment. From a brief amount of research, it would appear that the bulk of the threat comes from emissive EMI rather than conducted EMI. Unsurprisingly, the main culprit is the mobile phone and unless I miss my guess, it was the advent of the GSM system and the ugly sawtooth it used to transmit that made a ban on mobile phones near patient monitoring equipment necessary. Happily, GSM has gone the way of the covered wagon.

What surprises me is that outfits like Shunyata seem to think that their snake oil tactics are immune to scrutiny and require no verifiable proof. I figure they are filled with confidence after fooling many hundreds if not thousands of people who accept the voodoo claims connected to their audio products. New member kemoraud, would you care to share some pictures of your lab and maybe some before and after measurements?
This is the company that was mentioned on this thread by kemoraud

...I am also aware that Shunyata/CIS contracted with Biosense Webster R&D in 2018 to evaluate the CIS units. I independently confirmed this during conversations with individuals at BSW. We did not publish data or papers on these findings, but the difference CIS products made were observable and allowed us to more easily do our work.


Not a good look. Hence I recommended to stay out of it - as far as possible.

Biosense1.JPG
 
The kind of juicy thread that can only be found on ASR.
addendum: who tf calls their company by an acronym like 'CIS' these days
 
Hi, I am a cardiac electrophysiologist and director of our EP labs. I’ve known Grant since about 2016. He reached out to me regarding the current discussion since we worked together evaluating CIS products in our lab. I have no financial relationships with Shunyata or CIS.

Just for background, in the EP lab we evaluate low level electrical signals in the heart using specialized catheters and recording systems, at times looking at signal amplitudes as low as 0.1 mV or even less. In the EP lab EMI is common due to the large amount of equipment as well as being connected to the hospital electrical grid. Noise is the enemy of good signal analysis at these levels and having a low noise floor is critical. After hearing from another EP physician, I reached out to Grant. We were having noise in one of our labs as high as 0.1 to 0.15mV at the time. He made a trip to our lab to trial an early CIS unit. After Our biomed engineering team evaluated and approved the unit for our use as per their standard for any new equipment that comes into the hospital, we were able to reduce our noise floor to less than 0.01 mV and this was a consistent result.

I am also aware that Shunyata/CIS contracted with Biosense Webster R&D in 2018 to evaluate the CIS units. I independently confirmed this during conversations with individuals at BSW. We did not publish data or papers on these findings, but the difference CIS products made were observable and allowed us to more easily do our work.
very cool that you would sign up to an audio forum just to post this testimonial
 
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