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A technical discussion of the Borresen ironless woofer.

I think Snickers-is is right on faraday rings. Putting a copper ring around voice coil don't introduce any more mech loss(QMS).

The example of moving a magnet around a conductive material is right, but here, the voice coil is moving, not the magnet.

on the contrary, in this system the copper ring and magnet stays stationary since they are glued together. The voice coil, when shorted(by a votage amplifier) is just another conductive material, a conductive material moving around a fixed conductive material don't gererate any more loss. It's the magnet.

I think the huge copper ring has an effect on help avoiding demagnetize. An example is here:


Anyway, I really appreciate the techncial info in this thread posted by Steve.
Copper or aluminium basically shove around magnetic flux. There's much more to it. But that is the gist of their purpose. Thickness of the non-ferrous metal, position of the metal is all important. Ass in the shape of the metal that you are trying to force to have a useful flux field within. As an example a copper plated pole, is almost useless. Great for marketing but not for lowering your inductance.

Mark
 
Working out the size of the driver is easy.

Here we know the size of M1, and the crosssection. With some basic math we know where the "4.5 inch" number comes from -- It's the cone size without surround, around 114mm OD. It's also easy to calculate the SD is around 122~128cm^2. A standard 6 inch driver actually.

1744385967050.png
 
A standard 6 inch driver actually.
Borresen calls it a 5" inch (I thought about putting a link, but I am not going to do this. Who wants can find specifications of speaker 01).
From your picture and height dimension of the speaker (373mm assuming the M1 is the same height than the actual model 01) the outer basket diameter (as seen in the section view) is about 145mm. This would result in magnet OD somewhere around 77mm.

EDIT: I found specs for the M1 speaker (from @Pearljam5000 's pic), it has height of 368mm. That is only 1% difference. This is probably inside the margin of error. The driver of the newer 01 ("Silver Supreme Edition") might be different, who knows.

Borresen has no idea what they're doing.
My guess is, they know quite well what they are doing but what they write [and a good part of what they do] is all about (snake oil) marketing and not about sincere technology.
 
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No! That's the entire point of what Steve is posting here. Borresen has no idea what they're doing.
That is not true. Parts of these speakers are very well engineered. I try to never denegrate people. Michael Borreson if he copied Steve's design still needed to figure it out. That cone is interesting. To say that it's the best? Well best they can do. I have worked with spread tow carbon fiber cones directly with Composite Sounds. I was not so impressed.

Composite cones are useful. A small composite cone is possible. The resulting leaves me wondering who fell asleep at the wheel on the crossover, and possibly the driver design. But there is engineering ability there.

Mark
 
Borresen calls it a 5" inch (I thought about putting a link, but I am not going to do this. Who wants can find specifications of speaker 01).
From your picture and height dimension of the speaker (373mm) the outer basket diameter (as seen in the section view) is about 145mm. This would result in magnet OD somewhere around 77mm.

My guess is, they know quite well what they are doing but it is all about (snake oil) marketing and not about sincere technology.
Here it says 4.5 inch
1000090231.jpg
 
Borresen calls it a 5" inch (I thought about putting a link, but I am not going to do this. Who wants can find specifications of speaker 01).
From your picture and height dimension of the speaker (373mm) the outer basket diameter (as seen in the section view) is about 145mm. This would result in magnet OD somewhere around 77mm.

My guess is, they know quite well what they are doing but what they write is all about (snake oil) marketing and not about sincere technology.

My pixel measurement is close, the magnet is ~80mm x 14mm thick
Voice coil is 2 inch.
 
Working out the size of the driver is easy.

Here we know the size of M1, and the crosssection. With some basic math we know where the "4.5 inch" number comes from -- It's the cone size without surround, around 114mm OD. It's also easy to calculate the SD is around 122~128cm^2. A standard 6 inch driver actually.

View attachment 443628
Nice! I didn't have this picture.
 
Mark Kravchenko or anyone else could you please comment on the under designed spider in the Borresen woofer?
Well Steve you nailed the under designed part. This is supposed to be a midwoofer, and I see a midrange, spider/damper. One that is really more of a cone tweeter style damper/spider than a damper that is designed for a driver that should support reasonable levels of bass.
 
Working out the size of the driver is easy.

Here we know the size of M1, and the crosssection. With some basic math we know where the "4.5 inch" number comes from -- It's the cone size without surround, around 114mm OD. It's also easy to calculate the SD is around 122~128cm^2. A standard 6 inch driver actually.

View attachment 443628

Aren't wee looking at a double tuned bass reflex here? If the same is the case on the X1 (if I remember correctly, that is the one that was tested and the FR was published) it might explain the huge dip in the response.
 
Who writes this stuff? There's bits of truth. It's just so much other crap in there that annoys me. Back in the early 80's when I was wet behind the ears reading all this stuff I'd have questions about all these things. But being out in the countryside in rural Canada, good libraries were not an option. I ate all the white papers with a big spoon. Admittedly they were from KEF and B&W and they were actually accurate. Now, we have huge volumes of knowledge and add copy that looks like it was written by AI. The accumulated bovine renderings on the internet that makes people feel they have researched.

So rant over. Unlike Steve I'm still working. I'm in my mid 50's So as I have time this week I'll put together a comprehensive simulation.

77mm O.D. for the motor is the consensus? As long as it's close. It will not effect the B field ( magnetic gap field ) too much either way.
50mm voicecoil? It kind of fits the proportions. But I'm not sold on this completely.
We know that the DcR is 6 ohms.
We know that there are two coils, inside and outside. Doesn't matter too much for a simulation if I make them inside and outside or stack them. I can do either.
Former. Either we stay aluminium and work that through. Or personally I would use fibreglass. Aluminium has it's own weird little eddy current distortions that get into the mix.

Mark
 
These are my measurements, based on 145x145mm basket in the section view. FWIW
EDIT: I got the gap wrong. it is half as wide, so that would be 2.25mm or 2.5mm.
Corrected.

1744639727645.png
 

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These are my measurements, based on 145x145mm basket in the section view. FWIW
EDIT: I got the gap wrong. it is half as wide, so that would be 2.25mm or 2.5mm.
Corrected.

View attachment 444266
That aluminium in the middle is key as well. At least I think it is comparing it to other work I have done. I'll include it, and be able to turn it on and turn it off in the simulations.The same goes for the rear side of the magnets. When you have no steel wicking the flux the magnets behave a little differently than you would expect.
 
View attachment 444275
How much is the silver critical?
I appreciate you asking questions but this might not be the thread for it.

It's critical when you are charging $100 000 for a pair of 2-way loudspeakers. Electrically it is not much different than copper.

Mark
Marginally better conductor. Not enough to matter in 99% of scenarios. Seymour Duncan has a few guitar pickups wound using silver wire and for the life of me I cannot figure out why you would do that. But that's pretty off topic.


Well Steve you nailed the under designed part. This is supposed to be a midwoofer, and I see a midrange, spider/damper. One that is really more of a cone tweeter style damper/spider than a damper that is designed for a driver that should support reasonable levels of bass.
Odd that they'd have such a weak suspension. I suppose I've seen something similar-ish on the Neumann KH150, but that's also an active speaker with a pretty aggressive limiter, so not exactly the same idea?
 
With just 3% difference in conductivity, and 17% difference in density, copper is a better material for a moving coil drive unit than silver, but not as good as aluminium.
 
Aren't wee looking at a double tuned bass reflex here? If the same is the case on the X1 (if I remember correctly, that is the one that was tested and the FR was published) it might explain the huge dip in the response.
I've built 3D-printed double-reflex speakers, from what I see it seems not. Maybe they didn't render every detail in the cross section view.

The impedance curve looks like there's some small extra features, but in general don't look like a double reflex.

I guess from the design, it looks close to an extra acoustic filter to remove some mid-range leak from the huge port.

 
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