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A technical discussion of the Borresen ironless woofer.

DanielT,​

Clearly you understand the issues and you beat me to the part on the resistivity of the NeFeB. Yes there will be AC current density in the magnets; however, the permeability of the magnets is approximately Mu0 (the linear permeability of air). That current density will also help to heat the magnets. Thus my designation of the tweeter motor as Almost air core.

I have that paper on my desktop.
From page 32.
1744101845986.jpeg


Radial and axial magnetized concept above that came after STEALLUS.
1744101940705.jpeg


Frankly the reason I am here today is because the USPTO agrees that Borresen invented my concept of 2009 in 2019. I am pissed! When I get pissed, I get going.

I will quote from that link you sent me below.

"However, the use of these rather new ironless structures is still almost nonexistent and one had to wait until 2009 when Mowry [36] published his study on an ironless magnetic structure in a very influential specialized journal in the loudspeaker domain."

However, Borresen took credit in 2019 and claimed an invention while the USPTO supported that claim! "You know he read it in a magazine" Sir Elton John.
 
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Boxerfan88,


No, but that speaker does not utilize the ironless motor woofers. Frequency response such as that is usually a results of soft-part behavior (misbehavior), such as cone and surround modes, spider buckling, and basket and/or hard part resonances. Effects from a port and enclose geometry can contribute.

The Borresen loudspeakers that use the ironless motor drivers are in the greater than US$200,000 per pair! I have noticed several used Borresen ironless driver loudspeakers for sale on the internet. That can indicate that folks purchased Borresen but now are dissatisfied. Did they demag?

 
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DanielT,​

Clearly you understand the issues and you beat me to the part on the resistivity of the NeFeB.
...understand...
Well, thanks, but not me. However, I-or, who I quoted does. He has developed drivers for a well-known Danish company.

I just posted that quote because I thought you might find it interesting.You seem to be very knowledgeable and already know what I quoted though.:)
(Maybe some new information for others?)

In the further technical discussion itself in the thread, I will now place myself in the spectator's seat.I will follow the thread with interest and try to understand as best I can.:)

Edit:
Frankly the reason I am here today is because the USPTO agrees that Borresen invented my concept of 2009 in 2019. I am pissed! When I get pissed, I get going.

That doesn't seem right. I hope you get justice and proper recognition for your concept.
 
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DanielT said, " In the further technical discussion itself in the thread, I will now place myself in the spectator's seat."

Oh come on now. I thought your post was quite valuable. You clearly understand the electro-mechanics concepts of the moving coil audio transducer and not just the DC. Please try to stay involved. I need folks like you around to bail me out if I get stuck.
 
One characteristic of all the ironless motor topologies that were mentioned is that there are in effect three (3) magnetic gaps. The obvious primary gap and two (2) secondary anti-gaps at and about the magnet extremes. This gives the motor assembly a displacement limiting effect as the voice coil links anti-flux from the magnet extremes. This can be observed in the DC FEA simulations. Doug Button from JBL has published in the AES Journal how this effect reduces distortion at high drive levels. If someone wants to search for Button's paper(s) on this topic, that would be great. However, a brief study of the DC simulations that I have posted will give a picture of this phenomenon.

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DanielT said, " In the further technical discussion itself in the thread, I will now place myself in the spectator's seat."

Oh come on now. I thought your post was quite valuable. You clearly understand the electro-mechanics concepts of the moving coil audio transducer and not just the DC. Please try to stay involved. I need folks like you around to bail me out if I get stuck.
Well, on a basic level maybe. I have a technical high school education but then I studied social sciences at university. I am generally technically curious though.

As Amir said in #8 @René - Acculution.com , our expert in simulation of transducers... is for example a person who can give a technically sensible response.:)
Unfortunately, René doesn't seem to be very active on ASR right now.
 
Please be kind to me in that I am posting 15 to 20 year old simulations. However, Maxwell's equations have not changed, nor has Newton's method. I will assume that René has more powerful tools than I had back then but that's what we need to enhance this discussion.
 
Please be kind to me in that I am posting 15 to 20 year old simulations. However, Maxwell's equations have not changed, nor has Newton's method. I will assume that René has more powerful tools than I had back then but that's what we need to enhance this discussion.
You could try emailing him. I did a quick google search on René Acculution.com and this is what I came up with:


It might pique his interest if you send him an email with tips about this thread.:)

Edit:
Sorry I missed it. Send him a PM. He is active now on ASR::)
Screenshot_2025-04-08_121211.jpg
 
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I sent him an invitation and the link by ASR conversation and that generates an email. Sometimes, two bulls in one pen can be problematic. I stopped practicing about 10 years ago when Ilpo (founder of GENELEC) was sick and dying. I am not an engineer; I am a retired engineer that's pissed.
 
A few years ago, they put the driver parts up for display on a show. It gave me the oportunity to see exactly how it all is built, and yes, it is as simple as previously revealed here. It gave me the oportunity to run a FEM model to see the Bl(x), and this is what I got:

Borresen BLx.png


As anyone who has been dealing with FEM simulations would know, there are very few variables involved once you have no paramagnets and no asymmetry. So it is safe to assume this is pretty accurate. What is unlikely to be accurate is the force factor itself, but any change in windings and magnet class would only rise or lower the same curve a certain amount.

Something else we know about the driver is based on a claim made several times by the company. The impedance peak at Fs is extremely low. It is claimed to be due to the low inductance, which is simply not true. The inductive and capacitive components forming this peak are the mass and the suspension of the driver. The electrical inductande do not play a role in this.

There are a few ways to get this peak low. One is to introduce mechanical loss leading to low Qms. Another one is that you could in theory make a driver that has low mass and extremely loose suspension, but it would not be able to play any bass in a real world enclosure. Changing Le would not affect this peak unless it is extremely high to begin with. Since we know these woofers are quite traditional in therms of T/S we can say for sure that they are very lossy. It is actually quite impressive to get that amount of loss without an aluminium voice coil former.

Regarding patents @smowry , I am not sure there is any reason to be annoyed. There are only two possibilities here. One is that the patent is impossible to defend in court as it is easy to prove that it is prior art. The other one is that the detail it is approved based on is so tiny, it does not give any protection for the function of the product, and probably is still impossible to defend in court. We have the same situation with D Wiggins in 2003 or something where he re-patented an old Babb-patent from 1976 (the split gap). It was later revealed that it was approved based on the following:

1: A sentence in Babbco's patent stated, after the description of using two gaps and describing the possibility to add even more gaps, something like this: "Adding even more gaps would not have any practical advantage". Wiggins' attourney was able to convince the clerk that this sentence also included 2 gaps. While anyone with any understanding of the topic knows that using two gaps would add some advantage, while adding a third would not, the clerk obviously did not know this. This would off course make this patent impossible to defend in court.

2: A tiny groove in the pole piece between the two gaps were not added in Babb's patent in 1976. While it is an absolutely obvious thing to do in a world of T-shaped pole pieces, they were able to convince the clerk that this was a new invention. This too would probably have been pretty hard to get anywhere with in court.
 
Please be kind to me in that I am posting 15 to 20 year old simulations. However, Maxwell's equations have not changed, nor has Newton's method. I will assume that René has more powerful tools than I had back then but that's what we need to enhance this discussion.

I did have a meeting with both Maxwell and Newton yesterday actually. Based on the new ground breaking discoveries in the high end audio industry, they are about to release some new physical laws that can explain everything that golden ears are hearing, and why blind testing does not work. I was told it has all to do with astrology.
 
I did have a meeting with both Maxwell and Newton yesterday actually. Based on the new ground breaking discoveries in the high end audio industry, they are about to release some new physical laws that can explain everything that golden ears are hearing, and why blind testing does not work. I was told it has all to do with astrology.
Hilarious :) :) :)
 
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