A talk for the local skeptics community

[mhardy6647]

Anything that just has a single wire going into it - eg "grounding boxes"

well... I mean... there are times one needs an antenna -- and many antennae are a single wire.
At least, when I fabricate 'em.

 

[egellings]

A lot of this "Snake Oil" stuff tend to be from cable manufacturers, which actually makes sense sort of

Audio accessory companies in general generate snake oil by the gallon. Look at 'footers', as an example. These are usually disk shaped objects sold in sets of 4 at ridiculous prices, typically, and are said to magically improve the sound quality of any equipment supported by them. That sort of a thing sells well with 'philes who have no idea of how the equipment works but think they do. And then there was the famous Tice clock and assorted ornaments that, when placed in proximity of the equipment, improved its sound quality...

 

[Punter]

For a non HiFi audience, I think you should start with a short history of HiFi and how it evolved. Valve technology gave way to transistors and personally, I think this is where the true HiFi phenomena began. This early era was followed by an explosion of equipment and manufacturers, largely aiming their products at reproducing stereo vinyl records.

As the equipment improved, it was obvious that in many ways, the gear itself had reached a standard that was so uniform that there was little to differentiate one from another. Amplifiers fall into this category but other components like turntables and tonearms still seemed to have room for improvement and continued to be developed. TT's really topped out in the 80's where i think amplifiers did in the 70's. Speakers fall into a category that is still so subjective to the listener that it will never be settled IMHO.

Along with improvements in consumer equipment, manufacturers continued to develop new technologies, leading to digital recording and reproduction which has developed to technology like 32 bit float recording which so thoroughly exceeds every previous technology and massively exceeds the limits of human hearing to the point that there's really no point in developing something better.

Against this backdrop, the "tweak" phenomena began infiltrating the retail space. Prior to this, most tweaks were shared among enthusiasts and involved DIY modifications aimed at improving the performance of HiFi systems. The manufactured tweaks started with cables arguably. As the "cables make a difference" lore began to be spread by invested parties, it was obvious to those who sought to profit from such things that HiFi enthusiasts were a gullible lot and could be easily fooled into thinking the doo-dad they just bought made a drastic improvement in the performance of their gear.

As the competition for customers increased, the tweak makers began using more and more convoluted pseudoscience to convince the suckers that what they were buying was something that had been painstakingly researched and developed. Not only that, these products were made of exclusive and exotic materials so they MUST work!

That brings us to the present day where we are treated to the most outrageously deceptive, fraudulent and ineffective products. Now any rational person would think "how do they get away with this?" and the answer is "trust your ears"! Happily for all these fraudsters, the client can and will fool themselves into "hearing" the "difference". The internet has assisted this effort enormously and so many useful idiots have sprung up to review and endorse these products. As we observe, this gravy train continues to roll on, proving that there's one born every minute!

 

[fordiebianco]

I’ve always had some doubts about these.

6moons audio reviews: Acoustic System Resonators

aah, Marja + Henk. Always special.

 

[egellings]

For a non HiFi audience, I think you should start with a short history of HiFi and how it evolved. Valve technology gave way to transistors and personally, I think this is where the true HiFi phenomena began. This early era was followed by an explosion of equipment and manufacturers, largely aiming their products at reproducing stereo vinyl records.

As the equipment improved, it was obvious that in many ways, the gear itself had reached a standard that was so uniform that there was little to differentiate one from another. Amplifiers fall into this category but other components like turntables and tonearms still seemed to have room for improvement and continued to be developed. TT's really topped out in the 80's where i think amplifiers did in the 70's. Speakers fall into a category that is still so subjective to the listener that it will never be settled IMHO.

Along with improvements in consumer equipment, manufacturers continued to develop new technologies, leading to digital recording and reproduction which has developed to technology like 32 bit float recording which so thoroughly exceeds every previous technology and massively exceeds the limits of human hearing to the point that there's really no point in developing something better.

Against this backdrop, the "tweak" phenomena began infiltrating the retail space. Prior to this, most tweaks were shared among enthusiasts and involved DIY modifications aimed at improving the performance of HiFi systems. The manufactured tweaks started with cables arguably. As the "cables make a difference" lore began to be spread by invested parties, it was obvious to those who sought to profit from such things that HiFi enthusiasts were a gullible lot and could be easily fooled into thinking the doo-dad they just bought made a drastic improvement in the performance of their gear.

As the competition for customers increased, the tweak makers began using more and more convoluted pseudoscience to convince the suckers that what they were buying was something that had been painstakingly researched and developed. Not only that, these products were made of exclusive and exotic materials so they MUST work!

That brings us to the present day where we are treated to the most outrageously deceptive, fraudulent and ineffective products. Now any rational person would think "how do they get away with this?" and the answer is "trust your ears"! Happily for all these fraudsters, the client can and will fool themselves into "hearing" the "difference". The internet has assisted this effort enormously and so many useful idiots have sprung up to review and endorse these products. As we observe, this gravy train continues to roll on, proving that there's one born every minute!

I think that speakers fall into a different category than electronics because they interact with the room they are in, and different rooms with different furnishings in them can alter the sound of a speaker in various ways, whereas with electronics, the room has no real influence on its performance. Of course, those little resonators are sheer fantasy. But hey, if you believe that they work as advertised, then you, and you alone, will 'hear' a difference in sound quality when using them.

 

[HaveMeterWillTravel]

Audio accessory companies in general generate snake oil by the gallon. Look at 'footers', as an example. These are usually disk shaped objects sold in sets of 4 at ridiculous prices, typically, and are said to magically improve the sound quality of any equipment supported by them. That sort of a thing sells well with 'philes who have no idea of how the equipment works but think they do. And then there was the famous Tice clock and assorted ornaments that, when placed in proximity of the equipment, improved its sound quality...

The funny thing is, if the concern is about stability on hard surfaces (no rocking) then they would be used in sets of 3!

However, there is also a general class of products which MAY make an improvement which MAY be audible under SPECIFIC situations. I can't discount the effects when it comes to spikes or inverted cones for loudspeakers/stands when it is on carpet. Or the effect of coupled vibrations on say a turntable. But both of those are simply physics and not requiring anything magical.

But if one can't recognize/understand the "when" and "where" of a specific condition, nor understand the "why" product-type X may help; one falls into the trap of thinking it's applicable/beneficial everywhere.

 

[HaveMeterWillTravel]

A lot of this "Snake Oil" stuff tend to be from cable manufacturers, which actually makes sense sort of

Are they actually cable manufactures? I know 25+ years ago many (most?) did not manufacture the components in house. They tended to be 'assemblers' of parts.

 

[krabapple]

Talk about a target-rich area....


Since its a skeptics audience,you could tell the tale of Randi vs Fremer vs pear cable. It would be partly about mistakes to avoid when dealing with such shady actors.

 

[j_j]

Talk about a target-rich area....


Since its a skeptics audience,you could tell the tale of Randi vs Fremer vs pear cable. It would be partly about mistakes to avoid when dealing with such shady actors.

Oh that's on the list.

 

[HaveMeterWillTravel]

Talk about a target-rich area....


Since its a skeptics audience,you could tell the tale of Randi vs Fremer vs pear cable. It would be partly about mistakes to avoid when dealing with such shady actors.

Is this the place to discuss where I loved to secretly setup very specific/niche conditions where there were honest-to-god measurable/audible differences in ABx testing and enjoying perplexing people on how it was done? It was more of an engineering challenge than subterfuge.

Kind of the opposite of setting up "golden ears" such as claiming you are switching between a 'crap' amp and the par-excellence du jour?

 

[egellings]

The funny thing is, if the concern is about stability on hard surfaces (no rocking) then they would be used in sets of 3!

However, there is also a general class of products which MAY make an improvement which MAY be audible under SPECIFIC situations. I can't discount the effects when it comes to spikes or inverted cones for loudspeakers/stands when it is on carpet. Or the effect of coupled vibrations on say a turntable. But both of those are simply physics and not requiring anything magical.

But if one can't recognize/understand the "when" and "where" of a specific condition, nor understand the "why" product-type X may help; one falls into the trap of thinking it's applicable/beneficial everywhere.

The audiophile grade footers still seem like an expensive solution for a tiny problem that I could fix with a piece of a beer coaster placed under the 'floating' foot. No point in paying drop forge prices for a tack hammer.

 

[HaveMeterWillTravel]

The audiophile grade footers still seem like an expensive solution for a tiny problem that I could fix with a piece of a beer coaster placed under the 'floating' foot. No point in paying drop forge prices for a tack hammer.

Oh, I am in total agreement with the snake oil products.

 

[krabapple]

Is this the place to discuss where I loved to secretly setup very specific/niche conditions where there were honest-to-god measurable/audible differences in ABx testing and enjoying perplexing people on how it was done? It was more of an engineering challenge than subterfuge.

Kind of the opposite of setting up "golden ears" such as claiming you are switching between a 'crap' amp and the par-excellence du jour?

positive controls are good practice

 

[Thighsofsteel]

Threads like this make me wince, I was on my way to believing some of this!

Audiophile fuses are worth a look (not the worst - £4k !!!)

Quantum Science Audio (QSA) Silver Extreme Level UK Mains Fuse - 3A, 5A & 13 Amp

Future Shop proudly presents Quantum Science Audio (QSA), a leader in the audiophile fuse industry with extensive research in 'Bottle Neck Distortion'. QSA fuses are designed to enhance audio systems, a crucial component historically overlooked. These fuses focus on reducing 'bottlenecking'...

www.futureshop.co.uk

I put one in my charger for the vacuum cleaner. My house is cleaner than ever. In fact it just sings.

 

[egellings]

I'll get a couple for the kids to play with. Kids are old enough not to swallow them.

 

[j_j]

I put one in my charger for the vacuum cleaner. My house is cleaner than ever. In fact it just sings.

Ouch, I got burnt on my sarcasm meter!

 

[Salt]

• 
  
• https://highendnovum.de/en/home-en/

 

[j_j]

Well, I'd like to thank everyone on this thread for their contributions, the assembled folks enjoyed rather a few examples. I didn't get to the various colored fuses, sadly.

 

[solderdude]

Was the talk recorded in some way ?

 

[j_j]

I think the answer is "barely". I'll ask the host.