A tale of two speakers (B2031A and 8030c)

[changer]

Even my walls aren't big (deep) enough to soffit mount them.

I am thinking of buying PHL 3411 ten-inch drivers, they are most possibly the loudspeakers used in Genelec S360A. Actually, they feature a rather heavy cone at 58g Mms. This relates to the question discussed in another thread here, whether Mms is of relevance for mid range reproduction and if this sort of heavy cone needs more volume to 'wake up'. But with an astonishing BL of 20 this cone moves easily, Genelec only uses 200 watts to power them. Needs some heavy EQ-ing though.

 

[RobL]

Even my walls aren't big (deep) enough to soffit mount them.

I am thinking of buying PHL 3411 ten-inch drivers, they are most possibly the loudspeakers used in Genelec S360A. Actually, they feature a rather heavy cone at 58g Mms. This relates to the question discussed in another thread here, whether Mms is of relevance for mid range reproduction and if this sort of heavy cone needs more volume to 'wake up'. But with an astonishing BL of 20 this cone moves easily, Genelec only uses 200 watts to power them. Needs some heavy EQ-ing though.

I think I read somewhere that the S360 shares the 1032’s 10” driver, but with some cone reinforcement for the extra power.

Edit: it was HERE I read that.

 

[More Dynamics Please]

For those on a more restricted budget the advice to forget about lower cost options is not helpful. Everyone is looking for the best options within the price range they've allocated. In the case of lower cost passive PA speakers we simply don't have a lot of objective data to go by, just opinions based on varying degrees of actual experience and knowledge.

 

[Tom C]

I think JBL published spins for Eon. And the FR graph is available in the owner's manual, and on the website.

 

[Tom C]

Of course, this is a thread about Genelec, and Genelec clone. Doesn't Genelec publish similar data? When Amir measures, it usually matches the manufacturer's published data pretty closely, when it's a reputable company.

 

[changer]

I think I read somewhere that the S360 shares the 1032’s 10” driver, but with some cone reinforcement for the extra power.

Edit: it was HERE I read that.

It’s not true, though. The 1032 driver designation is P26WP-01-04, it’s possibly a Peerless, Vifa or that sort of Scandinavian production.

A Genelec salesmen said on YouTube, the S360’s driver was a redesigned driver based on the driver of the 1038cf. But it is easier than this, the looks of the driver give it away:

It’s obviously a PHL product and only 3411 is likely. Whether PHL created this driver on their behalf or Genelec chose a ready made OEM product, we’ll never know.

 

[changer]

For those on a more restricted budget the advice to forget about lower cost options is not helpful. Everyone is looking for the best options within the price range they've allocated. In the case of lower cost passive PA speakers we simply don't have a lot of objective data to go by, just opinions based on varying degrees of actual experience and knowledge.

I didn’t mean to advice on discarding cheaper PA options. But one must be honest to oneself: In professional audio, ten-inch tops are mostly entry level products. If we want a good 10-inch two way, we still have to meet usual indices of good audio quality. A 200 USD commercial plastic speaker is calculated with a profit margin in mind. For the price, I can barely buy the woofers used in said Genelec speaker. What can you expect of such a product? Not so much, it’s just to tight of a budget and probably better to get a competitive small speaker like the Kalis then. Amir btw did already review some PA speakers to—after EQing—some good, some less good outcomes (prx835 and control 29). DIY soundgroup’s SEOS-12 was quite nice after EQ, but it’s not a ready-made product and also bulky.

 

[Tom C]

Please, can anyone say, is 10” better than 12? Is 15 best?

 

[mightycicadalord]

My girlfriend came into the "studio" tonight, listened to a bunch of stuff together, Some Dua Lipa, Dnb, Floating Points, Men I Trust, Tracy Chapman, a great mix of everything. Between school and work we haven't had a lot of time to relax and just enjoy some tunes together.

She gave some pretty harsh words towards the gens. "I didn't even like being in here with those speakers".

Brutal.

 

[dshreter]

My girlfriend came into the "studio" tonight, listened to a bunch of stuff together, Some Dua Lipa, Dnb, Floating Points, Men I Trust, Tracy Chapman, a great mix of everything. Between school and work we haven't had a lot of time to relax and just enjoy some tunes together.

She gave some pretty harsh words towards the gens. "I didn't even like being in here with those speakers".

Brutal.

Respectfully, this is absurd

 

[mightycicadalord]

Respectfully, this is absurd

Respectfully, she is a musician and has her own room with great monitoring. We both trust each others opinion on the sound of things. She's had 12 years of listening to me mix things and has a great ear, not quite the "my wife even said it was amazing" trope.

Sorry for sharing my experience I guess? I didn't really like in being in the room with them either when they were playing so whatever.

I have a few paints I purchased today I'm going to spray on some test pieces and see which finish gets closest to what I want. Then I'll attempt to texture coat the waveguide plate and do some before and afters measurements.

 

[dshreter]

Respectfully, she is a musician and has her own room with great monitoring. We both trust each others opinion on the sound of things. She's had 12 years of listening to me mix things and has a great ear, not quite the "my wife even said it was amazing" trope.

Sorry for sharing my experience I guess? I didn't really like in being in the room with them either when they were playing so whatever.

I have a few paints I purchased today I'm going to spray on some test pieces and see which finish gets closest to what I want. Then I'll attempt to texture coat the waveguide plate and do some before and afters measurements.

I’m not saying you should like genelec or any other speaker, or that she should. But there’s nothing so wrong about them that it should be bothersome to be in the same room. I’d be interested to hear what justifications there would be that it sounds terrible.

 

[Digby]

I imagine it has something to do with the lack of low bass and general bass/mid-bass performance in the 8030c. I did say in my initial post that something seemed off with the bass - obviously it doesn't go as low as the Behringer, but other posters (dfuller) have said the 8 series seemed to him to have 'one note' bass and speculated that the low port tuning for the cabinet size might be to blame. Other suggestions have been it is something to do with dispersion or group delay, who knows?

It would be really interesting if Amir or Erin did some probing around as to what constitutes "good bass", beyond FR and distortion measurements, because it seems as if there could be more to it than meets the eye.

I did go as far as saying I think 7 or 8 out of 10 people asked to choose between the speakers would prefer the Behringer. If you add a sub/subs to the 8030c then it may be a different story, but that seems like comparing apples to oranges, given the price difference.

I don't think the 8030c is terrible, but the absence of what was going on in the bass with the Behringer was very noticeable. I would only consider the 8030c with a subwoofer and wonder whether, even then, it would perform down to 80hz as well as a Behringer passing over to a sub at the same frequency.

I think bass is just really important to how we perceive sound and unless something is going significantly wrong elsewhere, in a side by side comparison between speakers most people will pick the one they think has the better bass response.

 

[changer]

Please, can anyone say, is 10” better than 12? Is 15 best?

This question cannot be answered in general, you must define for what.

A smaller driver will begin to get more directive at lower frequencies, hence, directivity should be higher early with a bigger driver, this can be advantageous. There is other considerations. I couldn’t fit the current driver that I use Faital Pro 12PR320 in a even smaller enclosure. At 50 liters, it is quite a box. But a ten-inch gets me down to 35 liters with DSP equalization. I assume that a powerful and efficient ten-inch driver has still enough Sd to deliver that upper bass authority that I learned to love. That it just sounds substantial, albeit neutral. I would like my speaker to be a certain size, JBL708P size is good, but 8-inch is to small to my taste and not being a multinational, I cannot produce a speaker to fit a certain use. So the speaker gets a bit bigger again.
Ten-inch is good in my case. Already invested in doing it myself, the choices are what the market can offer.

 

[More Dynamics Please]

Of course bass is important to how we perceive sound. Toole's extensive research found that about 30% of one's judgment of sound quality is a reaction to bass performance. If one becomes fixated on bass performance one can perceive that a cheaper speaker with extended bass may be preferable to a higher quality speaker with less extended bass. This in no way makes a case for the cheaper speaker being better than the higher quality speaker.

 

[Digby]

This question cannot be answered in general, you must define for what.

A smaller driver will begin to get more directive at lower frequencies, hence, directivity should be higher early with a bigger driver, this can be advantageous. There is other considerations. I couldn’t fit the current driver that I use Faital Pro 12PR320 in a even smaller enclosure. At 50 liters, it is quite a box. But a ten-inch gets me down to 35 liters with DSP equalization.

I'm intrigued. Can you post pictures and, if you have them, measurements of what you made? Probably best in its own thread.

Of course bass is important to how we perceive sound. Toole's extensive research found that about 30% of one's judgment of sound quality is a reaction to bass performance. If one becomes fixated on bass performance one can perceive that a cheaper speaker with extended bass may be preferable to a higher quality speaker with less extended bass. This in no way makes a case for the cheaper speaker being better than the higher quality speaker.

I think you've misunderstood what I was trying to say, it's not that bass is the be all and end all, but some things are likely more important than others.

I was discussing on another thread how it was likely more important that a speaker goes down to 40hz, than it is that it goes all the way to 20khz. FM radio is an example, it only goes to 15khz because the pilot tone is at 19khz. Do we miss much with FM radio or is what is missing inconsequential to a lack of bass or poor bass reproduction? The same can be said with MP3, encoding removes lots of information from the signal, yet at reasonable compression rates, there is little audible loss.

I'm not talking about one thing only being important, but more that there is a hierarchy of importance and different measurements and qualities in a speaker need to be weighted against others.

There is probably more musical importance in the area 40-80hz than there is 15khz-20khz, yet out of every 100 speakers, 98 will reach 20khz, but perhaps only 10-15 will reach 40hz.

 

[More Dynamics Please]

I think you've misunderstood what I was trying to say, it's not that bass is the be all and end all, but some things are likely more important than others.

I think you've misunderstood that my general comment on the subject was not in direct response to what you were trying to say.

 

[Tangband]

I imagine it has something to do with the lack of low bass and general bass/mid-bass performance in the 8030c. I did say in my initial post that something seemed off with the bass - obviously it doesn't go as low as the Behringer, but other posters (dfuller) have said the 8 series seemed to him to have 'one note' bass and speculated that the low port tuning for the cabinet size might be to blame. Other suggestions have been it is something to do with dispersion or group delay, who knows?

It would be really interesting if Amir or Erin did some probing around as to what constitutes "good bass", beyond FR and distortion measurements, because it seems as if there could be more to it than meets the eye.

I did go as far as saying I think 7 or 8 out of 10 people asked to choose between the speakers would prefer the Behringer. If you add a sub/subs to the 8030c then it may be a different story, but that seems like comparing apples to oranges, given the price difference.

I don't think the 8030c is terrible, but the absence of what was going on in the bass with the Behringer was very noticeable. I would only consider the 8030c with a subwoofer and wonder whether, even then, it would perform down to 80hz as well as a Behringer passing over to a sub at the same frequency.

I think bass is just really important to how we perceive sound and unless something is going significantly wrong elsewhere, in a side by side comparison between speakers most people will pick the one they think has the better bass response.

Everybody has the right of their own opinion, but everyone that believes that the Behringer is a better loudspeaker than the Genelec 8030c needs to listen and compare forthemselves to make the right decision. For me, there is a hugh step forward in soundquality with the Genelecs compared to about almost every other loudspeaker in the same size I have heard, including the Behringer.

The Genelecs is better sounding in every aspects, maybe except for maximum spl in the bass below 60 Hz - my opinion.

It would be very interesting though , to read a review by Amirm testing this Behringers . Maybe they are really good in their pricerange ?

Edit: Amirm has been testing the passive version, Edit: 2030p. Its not bad, but have significantly higher distortion and cant play as loud as the smaller 8030c. Maybe the active version of 2031 is better ?

 

[mightycicadalord]

I think the diffuser on the tweeter is going hurt amir's impressions, but that's how they are out of the box. It's only fair to judge them that way. I predict he will cut the highs, a boost to the mid-range, and toss in two filters on the woofer to clean up mud.

I have had the 2030p for a long time, they need a sub and the woofer needs eq, imaging is incredible on them. I find the tweeter+waveguide implementation to be excellent.

 

[RobL]

Everybody has the right of their own opinion, but everyone that believes that the Behringer is a better loudspeaker than the Genelec 8030c needs to listen and compare forthemselves to make the right decision. For me, there is a hugh step forward in soundquality with the Genelecs compared to about almost every other loudspeaker in the same size I have heard, including the Behringer.

The Genelecs is better sounding in every aspects, maybe except for maximum spl in the bass below 60 Hz - my opinion.

It would be very interesting though , to read a review by Amirm testing this Behringers . Maybe they are really good in their pricerange ?

Edit: Amirm has been testing the passive version, 2031p. Its not bad, but have significantly higher distortion and cant play as loud as the smaller 8030c. Maybe the active version of 2031 is better ?
View attachment 171551View attachment 171552

Those are for 2030p’s, not 2031p. There is some measurements circulating of 2031’s though: