A tale of two speakers (B2031A and 8030c)

[mightycicadalord]

If anyone wants to send me a pair of the gen versions I'll be happy to compare

 

[RobL]

The problem is they are $8000 for a pair. The value proposition for these larger studio monitors does seem to go down rather quickly. I don't see why something with similar performance couldn't be achieved for around 1/10 to 1/8 the price. Either a diamond in the rough among PA speakers or a DIY build.

I’ll admit I haven’t dabbled much with PA gear, but I do have a pair of JBL Control 30’s in my shop. They’re passive with a 10” woofer and a coaxial mid/tweeter. I think around $1400USD/pair. They sound pretty good in my shop, but compared to my 1032’s they sound like mud.

There you go…a completely meaningless comparison! Lol

 

[changer]

The aforementioned QSCs are a meter ten high and almost .5 meter wide. Maybe there is different restrictions in respect to estate in Brazil, but I wouldn’t put industrial columns of that size in my European city apartment’s living room. Last graduate show at my former art school I experienced an RCF Art 735-A Mk4 and it’s low end extension was impressive. I still doubt it can be EQ-ed to indoor listening standards for small rooms. The thing with most PA speakers is they are optimized to play within a rig, a rig you wouldn’t want to have in your room. Then, they usually optimize dispersion patterns not for in-room response, as they are not meant to work in small rooms but in rooms that almost qualify as free field. You might get them to work, but with a lot of effort. Finding one that has the right dispersion pattern, especially vertically but also horizontal, a good crossover frequency with regard to home listening (low), and the ability to boost the usually deficient low end extension, is quite a task.

 

[Digby]

Buying a pair of active monitors with the same performance as the 8361A for $800? That would be very nice, but highly unlikely.

Edit: You meant the S360, same answer though.

I didn't say the same though, I said similar. The B2031A has similar performance to the 8030C at about 1/3 the price. We will see the measurement differences when they arrive with Amir. I preferred the Behringer by some margin, others may prefer the 8030C. The value given by the B2031A is much higher though. It doesn't sound "cheaper" than the 8030C to my ears, yet it is far less costly.

There are active PA speakers with 10" driver + CD horn for around that $800 and much less if passive, do they represent good value and similar performance (post EQ) to the S360? (when run with a subwoofer, as I don't think any PA speaker will go happily to -3db at 40hz....maybe if placed close to rear wall?)

they say QSC is good value in PA. this is a 3-way with 15" woofer and compression driver https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/KW153--qsc-kw153-1000w-15-inch-3-way-powered-speaker

I have been saying that there are probably dozens of gems between PA solutions. especialy for us who will use EQ anyways. we are paying extra money for frequency response focus while not needing it

This is the part I don't understand. If FR distortion is linear and isn't too egregious, then it can be corrected with DSP. You can't correct a lack of SPL or sense of size though.

Not everyone will have the same space or wants, but I don't see why this isn't pursued more, rather than ever more flat FR responses that perhaps amount to quite minimal difference post EQ.

I’ll admit I haven’t dabbled much with PA gear, but I do have a pair of JBL Control 30’s in my shop. They’re passive with a 10” woofer and a coaxial mid/tweeter. I think around $1400USD/pair. They sound pretty good in my shop, but compared to my 1032’s they sound like mud.

There you go…a completely meaningless comparison! Lol

They are 10" + coax though, not 10" + CD. The ones getting high praise seem to be 10" + CD. I've not heard anyone describe them as mud, quite to opposite (might have too much highs, fixable with EQ?).

 

[Trell]

I didn't say the same though, I said similar.

You did, my bad.

Depending on what you mean by “similar” my I stand by my post, more or less.

 

[Digby]

Well, this is a philosophical question .

There is probably a point at which ever flatter FR doesn't matter much and other factors matter more (SPL, directivity, sense of scale). This is somewhat down to the individual, but such a point likely exists for everyone.

My problem, and it might just be my ignorance, is when I am faced with measurements I say to myself "what am I looking at here?". Not in a literal sense, but in how it relates to how the speaker will sound. I suppose unless you measure speakers (and measure a lot of them), can you really imagine what the difference between 5% THD and 10% THD at, say, 100hz sounds like.

A deviance from perfect in one area, may be compensated for by better performance in another, and as no speaker is perfect in all aspects it would be interesting to understand how different imperfections present themselves. I did ask if Amir could do a video on the sound of different faults as they occur at lower and higher rates and he said it would be difficult to do so.

Loudspeakers are, as most things, a case of picking your poison.

 

[changer]

What you need is a inexistent market niche. Almost any freely available efficient 10-inch woofer is not constructed to deliver good low end extension in a reasonably sized enclosure and still play up to a crossover frequency for a two-way system. For example, the woofer of Genelec 1032 (10-inch) is proprietary, the woofer of 1031 (8-inch) available B2B from 500 pc. I know this because I have searched for the right drivers. There is a few drivers with aluminium cones I’d avoid because of their breakup and many with nasty resonances at the upper limit of the intended pass band.

„Small“ enclosure 10-inch PA rely on subs all the time, there is no acceptable full-range speakers. These speakers will have a crossover frequency optimized for SPL, taking strain from the compression driver with a higher divide, and therefore include cone breakup into the passband of the woofer. Most waveguides that come with this speakers also tend to be very narrow. This discussion is still on, but while I love the merits of undisturbed direct sound, I would possibly prefer a 50 degree pattern width as a minimum. Find that waveguide that fits a nice baffle width in a commercial package. Below 1k, you will possibly also have troubles to find a high end DSP that will equalize the low end while keeping the overall signal clean.

Show me I am wrong and I will not get myself waveguides printed, will not build an enclosure from Baltic birch (I do not love woodworking, I want to listen to my music), will sell the two Hypex plate amps and not buy either PHL 3411 or 18sound 10NW650 to heavily EQ them in a small enclosure.

 

[Digby]

You could be completely right, I don't know. I'm just trying to see what the next step would be, if you want more SPL/dynamics, the next step above is a probably a KH310, which is around $5000 for a pair. Can nothing be done that is 90% as good at 1/4 the price. Maybe just pulling the Behringer drivers out, putting in a floorstanding cabinet and adding 10" or 12" driver for 150hz down, would this work?

I really don't know. I want to avoid spending $5000 if there is another way to achieve the same goal, if $1000 will get you 90% of the way.

 

[zeppzeppzepp]

Because we're listening to music, not frequencies.
The size issue is just the same as the difference that you hear the same pitch from violins of different size.
Speaker evaluation is base on parameters, not on application.
If you evaluating speakers mainly with solo vocals, good designed monitors with 5 inch woofers still can sound great without missing any that large speakers can provide.

Small Genelecs surely is good at most of the evaluation parameters, Does it sound good? Sure, just with some compromise of the feel of large size instruments.
Is it the bass frequency issue? nope, adding sub can not solve the problem if you need to find the right scale of the acoustic instruments.
On the other hand, you won't miss much listening to electronic music with small speakers plus subs.

Large size speakers are not always better than the small size speakers, because the evaluation is base on quality parameters.
But to listen to music, it's less confusing with larger speakers, with more complete feeling of right lower frequencies, right scale, and right dynamic......etc, IF you are familiar with the real world instruments.

 

[changer]

You could be completely right, I don't know. I'm just trying to see what the next step would be.

I really don't know. I want to avoid spending $5000 if there is another way to achieve the same goal, if $1000 will get you 90% of the way.

Next step with a commercial product is probably a used pair of Genelec 1032s. Not for 1k, though. Even a DIY effort won’t bring you there with 1k.

 

[mightycicadalord]

You could be completely right, I don't know. I'm just trying to see what the next step would be, if you want more SPL/dynamics, the next step above is a probably a KH310, which is around $5000 for a pair. Can nothing be done that is 90% as good at 1/4 the price. Maybe just pulling the Behringer drivers out, putting in a floorstanding cabinet and adding 10" or 12" driver for 150hz down, would this work?

I really don't know. I want to avoid spending $5000 if there is another way to achieve the same goal, if $1000 will get you 90% of the way.

That's basically a budget w371, I want to do that myself but not with the 2031, no point imo of running an 8" into something like that, would work better with the 2030. I'm just not to keen on investing in the signal processing and amplification.

I'm willing to bet if you asked kali to make a 1032 like speaker for under 1k, that wouldn't be much of a problem sans glm style dsp.

 

[thewas]

I’ll admit I haven’t dabbled much with PA gear, but I do have a pair of JBL Control 30’s in my shop. They’re passive with a 10” woofer and a coaxial mid/tweeter. I think around $1400USD/pair. They sound pretty good in my shop, but compared to my 1032’s they sound like mud.

Would be interested to see them on Amirs oder Erins NFS as they have interesting specs for their price

Source: https://jblpro.com/en-US/site_elements/control-30-spec-sheet

 

[Digby]

Next step with a commercial product is probably a used pair of Genelec 1032s. Not for 1k, though. Even a DIY effort won’t bring you there with 1k.

I have to say I am intrigued by the idea of a high efficiency 10" + CD though. I think the 1032 would definitely be an improvement, but might be something of a sidestep, where a high efficiency design would definitely have the resources for high SPL. My memories of PA speakers is not good though.

Have you seen the Mackie C200, what do you think about that speaker (obviously would need a sub).

 

[More Dynamics Please]

@Archaea mentioned on AVS Forum that he tried the B2031As for music and really liked them. However, when he tried them in his home theater they wouldn't reach reference level at his 12' seating distance. Instead he used Mackie C200s with a 90 Hz crossover in his home theater because they comfortably reached reference with minimal compression and distortion. His teardown of a C200 showed quality components beyond what might be expected in a ~$200 10" passive PA speaker. Another positive for the C200 is that it was designed and tuned by the well respected Eastern Acoustic Works (EAW). For low cost PA speakers there's probably more interest in seeing measurements for the C200 and Behringer B212XL/B215XL than others as many have successfully used them in home theater applications.

 

[RobL]

Would be interested to see them on Amirs oder Erins NFS as they have interesting specs for their price

View attachment 171338
Source: https://jblpro.com/en-US/site_elements/control-30-spec-sheet

Funny, because I’ve actually got a single control 30 I could send him…he wouldn’t even have to return it! Lol
Shipping might be on the pricey side though, they’re large and heavy!

 

[Tom C]

PA speakers come in lots of different flavors, for different applications. The JBL Eons are intended to be portable, and useable indoors. I was in a hotel bar in Dallas recently, and the one-woman-with-guitar live performer had an Eon for sound reinforcement. She had it turned up way too loud, imo, but the point is that this was one of the use scenarios intended by the designers.
At the ski resort we went to last winter, they had a single JBL PA monitor blasting rock n roll in mono, tucked into a lockable little cabinet at the foot of the ski lift. It looked to me to be Eon also, but I was on skis, and didn’t make the effort to get close enough to confirm.
The Eon 615 is supposed to measure pretty flat, so you don’t always have to give that up going with PA.
We’ve all heard small desktop systems with impressive bass that belies their small size. We’ve heard speaker systems that use an array of smaller size drivers to produce greater than expected bass output (the old Bose 901 system is one that comes to mind, used nine 4.5” drivers). But none of these solutions seems to quite replicate the impact of a 10-in woofer. I’ve read where the output of the woofer is related to the diameter of the cone, but also related to the excursion of the cone, i.e., the length of travel of the voice coil. To some extent, a longer travel can make up for having a smaller cone diameter, but the effect is limited, as technical problems are encountered as the length of travel is increased. They get more expensive, too, as does using a greater number of smaller drivers.
So maybe that’s the long and the short of it. Simply using a larger driver is one of the better solutions, overall. It seems to me that the audio experts have been conspicuously silent on the topic, or maybe they are just tired of answering the question. I tried to start my own thread to flesh out the discussion, but it gained little traction. When I was in training in school, I often wondered how the instructors choose what it is they are going to teach you. I eventually concluded that they teach you what is known by research as the body of knowledge in that field. If you have a practical question in your mind that isn’t answered by what you are taught, it’s often because the question hasn’t yet been answered, so that could be an opportunity for further research. So maybe that’s why we haven’t heard more from the audio scientists on this topic.
Or, maybe there’s a different reason. Perhaps the answer is complex, and doesn’t lend itself easily to a quick answer. Or, maybe the answer’s there, but I’m just not seeing it. Regardless, I’m left with the impression that all of the 5-in woofer systems I own don’t sound as good as the ones with 10-in woofer. And the subs with 18-in woofer don’t make up for the difference. IOW, two-way with 5-in woofer plus subwoofer with 18-in, does not equal two-way with 10-in woofer plus subwoofer with 18-in.
There’s a difference other than just level of playing volume that can be achieved. Maybe it’s headroom, or maybe compression in the system, or maybe both, or something different. I obviously don’t know, but it’s not just volume level. There is also a difference in the quality of the sound. At the risk of sounding like an idiot, the drums sound more like drums, the guitar more like a guitar, etc. For classical music, it’s less of an issue, and more apparent with electric instruments. I like it loud from time to time, but never ragged. Clean and low is much preferred to loud and ragged. But loud and clean is the most preferred.
The why is the less immediate question, though. The more immediate question is how to get what I want in my home for a reasonable cost. For now, the answer to that seems to be 10-, 12-, or 15-inch two-way with 18-in sub (I like the sound of a horn with compression driver for the tweeter, so that’s an advantage rather than a problem for me). So, a three-way system, in effect. And portable PA (not intended for install) is perhaps one of the more cost efficient, and space efficient, solutions. Kind of ugly for the living room, though. JBL 4249 looks promising to me, but price starts to creep up, I think mostly because of the cabinet finish.
And which size is best? Based on my own experience, 5-in woofer is too small, and 18-in woofer is too big. It seems most say 10-in is better than 8-in. Is 10-in best, if you are going to run it with an 18-inch in the subwoofer cabinet, or is 12-inch the optimal? Is 15-in better still, or is that going too far?

 

[changer]

I have to say I am intrigued by the idea of a high efficiency 10" + CD though. I think the 1032 would definitely be an improvement, but might be something of a sidestep, where a high efficiency design would definitely have the resources for high SPL. My memories of PA speakers is not good though.

Have you seen the Mackie C200, what do you think about that speaker (obviously would need a sub).

The 1032C is rated at 116 dB SPL and German language listening reviews say that only at higher output levels than your ears can bear, the tweeter begins to distort/loose resolution. They get loud clean. If you can find a good used deal, they will be light years ahead of cheap Mackie PAs. The Mackies, they are plastic enclosure (probably resonant), entry level 10-inch PA tops, rolling off even a bit early for sub integration. Well you can order one speaker if you have measuring abilities and an equalizing chain ready and see how far this brings you. I wouldn't waste the time.

 

[Digby]

Simply using a larger driver is one of the better solutions, overall. It seems to me that the audio experts have been conspicuously silent on the topic, or maybe they are just tired of answering the question. I tried to start my own thread to flesh out the discussion, but it gained little traction.

I think that large speakers just don't sell. Since 1970s, as power started to become cheap, amplifier watts have grown and speakers got smaller, but it isn't a like for like exchange. Smaller speakers (even if more accurate) seem to lose something compared to larger, more efficient speakers.

Probably only 5% of enthusiasts would entertain the idea of a 10" driver in a large cabinet and probably only 0.5% of that 5%'s significant others would entertain it.

Why discuss it, if it is not realistic for most people. I think that is the attitude generally.

The 1032C is rated at 116 dB SPL and German language listening reviews say that only at higher output levels than your ears can bear, the tweeter begins to distort/loose resolution. They get loud clean. If you can find a good used deal, they will be light years ahead of cheap Mackie PAs. The Mackies, they are plastic enclosure (probably resonant), entry level 10-inch PA tops, rolling off even a bit early for sub integration. Well you can order one speaker if you have measuring abilities and an equalizing chain ready and see how far this brings you. I wouldn't waste the time.

That seems a fair assessment. I don't have the equipment to measure and EQ properly, which is a fair amount of extra cost in itself, then comes the learning and applying that knowledge. I think you are right about the Genelecs being far less hassle, at least in the short term.

 

[mightycicadalord]

There is always the KRK 10-3. Always a little curious about that one.

 

[Tom C]

Can't help but admire these greatly. It's one of the very few speaker systems costing more than US$15,000 that could possibly be worth the asking price. This Used-B-Stock pair is for sale on Reverb from Genelec USA for US$42,000 + $1,500 shipping. I wonder what full retail is.