A T VM95ML over Super OM30 to reduce IGD?

[SigmaR1]

Hi,

An old friend just gave me his collection of classical music vinyl records. I therefore decided to dust off my trusty old Dual CS 5000 bought brand new in 1989. It’s equipped with an Ortofon Super OM30 (fine line) that’s been used for a few dozen hours. And the miracle didn’t happen: it sounds very good (the Ortofon seems fairly linear to me), but as soon as the stylus gets close to the label, the ING kicks in on many records...
I’m starting to wonder if I shouldn’t try a cartridge that performs better in this regard, like an AT VM95ML if it’s as linear as the Ortofon (or even a 540, but I’m not sure if it’s worth it).
Thanks for your thoughts on this!

 

[Thomas_A]

The AT VM745xml.

 

[MusicNBeer]

I've had a lot of issues with groove damage on older records I've bought, even when they appear perfect. This most often is heard on the inner grooves. Running an ML or fine line stylus makes no difference in these cases. Do you have any newer records, or ones you know aren't damaged?

 

[lini]

I’m starting to wonder if I shouldn’t try a cartridge that performs better in this regard, (...)

Well, the regular (= non-Super (*)) Ortofon FineLines merely have a minor radius of 8 µm (= ca. 0.3 mil) - so, while well-made and nicely polished, these aren't any sharper than medium-sharp ellipticals and hence also not really better in terms of avoiding IGD. So, yes, going for something with some sort of very sharp ridge-type line contact (MR, ML, SAS...) certainly wouldn't be a bad idea in that regard.

Mind you, though, that Dual typically didn't equip their tables with phono cables with very low capacitance. So the total load capacitance will typically be suboptimal for quite a lot of AT's dual/V-magnet MM models, unless your phono stage/section would have an extremely low input capacitance.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini


*) A few Ortofon models, like for example the MC 15 Super II, would sport SuperFineLines with 5 rather than 8 µm minor radius.

 

[SigmaR1]

I've had a lot of issues with groove damage on older records I've bought, even when they appear perfect. This most often is heard on the inner grooves. Running an ML or fine line stylus makes no difference in these cases. Do you have any newer records, or ones you know aren't damaged?yes

IGD can happen even with new records, I have two samples with signal engraved very close to the label, and it's painful...

 

[SigmaR1]

Well, the regular (= non-Super (*)) Ortofon FineLines merely have a minor radius of 8 µm (= ca. 0.3 mil) - so, while well-made and nicely polished, these aren't any sharper than medium-sharp ellipticals and hence also not really better in terms of avoiding IGD. So, yes, going for something with some sort of very sharp ridge-type line contact (MR, ML, SAS...) certainly wouldn't be a bad idea in that regard.

Mind you, though, that Dual typically didn't equip their tables with phono cables with very low capacitance. So the total load capacitance will typically be suboptimal for quite a lot of AT's dual/V-magnet MM models, unless your phono stage/section would have an extremely low input capacitance.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini


*) A few Ortofon models, like for example the MC 15 Super II, would sport SuperFineLines with 5 rather than 8 µm minor radius.

Thank you Lini

What's about Super OM? I thought that the stylus were the same between regular and super OM. Thank you for the advice concerning the Cload. I have to check my phono preamplifier (Yamaha CX1).

 

[Balle Clorin]

Standard OM has a serous resonance around 400hz that Super tried to rectify. Not sure how well as I have given up all OM seeing the high distortion they have .

Stylus is the same for either series

 

[lini]

What's about Super OM? (...)

That's a different Super. I.e., the Super in the SuperOM model designation refers to the improved generator with different data (L: 450 -> 580 mH, R: 750 -> 1000 Ohm) and hollow, slit instead of solid coil cores/pole pieces (for eddy current reduction) - whereas SuperFineLine is a tip shape designation. But none of the OMs and SuperOMs so far would sport a SuperFineLine. Sharpest tips in the OM and SuperOM family so far were the vdH II of the initial 40 and the Gyger II/Gyger 70 of the later, still current 40 - both sporting a minor radius around 5 µm (= ca. 0.2 mil and thus as sharp as sharp ellipticals and the SuperFineLines, but not quite as sharp as the ridge-type line contacts).

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[mike70]

You set the right geometry for the tonearm / cartridge?

The record is clean? (not "I see it clean", I mean, properly clean)

 

[SigmaR1]

You set the right geometry for the tonearm / cartridge?

The record is clean? (not "I see it clean", I mean, properly clean)

I usually remove dust with a carbon brush before each playing, if it's obviously dirty I clean it with demineralized water... That's all that I can say about it!

Concerning the tuning of the arm: I used the CS5000 Dual gauge, and I double checked with the Ortofon protractor; For VTR: I set 1.5g (AS 1.5, recommanded settings) and the VTR tuning is OK (checked with an external Ortofon balance).

@Balle Clorin: Disappointed to learn how bad Ortofon Om are bad (but exepensive!)

 

[AaronJ]

Anecdotally I have found Ortofon to be junk relative to the price. 10 times out of 10 I'd take the VM95ML over the OM30, and for the price of a 30 stylus you could get two 95ML stylii.

 

[Emulator II]

Anecdotally I have found Ortofon to be junk relative to the price. 10 times out of 10 I'd take the VM95ML over the OM30, and for the price of a 30 stylus you could get two 95ML stylii.

I'm totally with you. Furthermore, they apparently still haven't found an adhesive for their diamonds that would allow for liquid cleaning. That probably explains the relatively short stated lifespan of their needles. Not exactly convincing.

 

[SigmaR1]

My OM30 styli is OK and I clean it with 70% alcool under a microscope.

 

[Emulator II]

My comment just referred to the official recommendations of this manufacturer, which I find a bit odd. I have no doubt, that liquid cleaning is possible without damage with Ortofons too.

 

[mike70]

I usually remove dust with a carbon brush before each playing, if it's obviously dirty I clean it with demineralized water... That's all that I can say about it!

Concerning the tuning of the arm: I used the CS5000 Dual gauge, and I double checked with the Ortofon protractor; For VTR: I set 1.5g (AS 1.5, recommanded settings) and the VTR tuning is OK (checked with an external Ortofon balance).

@Balle Clorin: Disappointed to learn how bad Ortofon Om are bad (but exepensive!)

well, that's not a "deep clean" ... i had some records with IGD and it was "simply" dirt.
a right cleaning process (manual or with RCM) and the IGD was over

 

[digitalfrost]

Hi,

An old friend just gave me his collection of classical music vinyl records. I therefore decided to dust off my trusty old Dual CS 5000 bought brand new in 1989. It’s equipped with an Ortofon Super OM30 (fine line) that’s been used for a few dozen hours. And the miracle didn’t happen: it sounds very good (the Ortofon seems fairly linear to me), but as soon as the stylus gets close to the label, the ING kicks in on many records...
I’m starting to wonder if I shouldn’t try a cartridge that performs better in this regard, like an AT VM95ML if it’s as linear as the Ortofon (or even a 540, but I’m not sure if it’s worth it).
Thanks for your thoughts on this!

So a Microline stylus is IMHO the best you can get for inner groove distortion, even better than Shibata. That said, proper alignment of the turntable often helps a ton. You can use the Conrad Hoffman arc template generator or other tools (look at vinylengine.com) https://conradhoffman.com/chsw.htm

If you setup the turntable for german DIN inner groove radius (57.5mm) it will help a ton. If you have trouble getting perfect alignment, there are cheap USB microscopes available. I would recommend Löfgren A with german DIN inner groove.

I have the AT-VM95ML and it's a beast. For the price it's excellent. I had AT33PTG/II before, but honestly I cannot justify the price for how good the 95ML is. If your tonearm resonance allows it, it's easily best bang for the buck in vinyl IMHO.

You will need to align the 95ML anyway. I would practice on the OM30 and see if it improves things before spending money. If nothing else, its good training.

 

[Johnkeizer]

I agree, the at vm95ml is an amazing cartridge, even without the very affordable price.
On my pioneer 1250 and yamaha 2000, it sounds amazing.

 

[SigmaR1]

Thank you all for the advices. I remember experimenting quite a bit with the various protractors available on VE, without seeing any noticeable improvement. What’s the right technique for manual cleaning?

I may buy the cheap 95ML.... (However, I have no idea of the Cload of the phono stage of my Yamaha preamplifier and the Cload of the CS5000's cable is around 150-200 pF).
But if I have to go with specific microscopes, record cleaners and so on, maybe the best thing to do is to buy the CD versions of the most interesting vinyles of that collection... I knew he’d given me a poisoned gift

 

[lini]

(...) Thank you for the advice concerning the Cload. I have to check my phono preamplifier (Yamaha CX1). (...)

From a look into the service manual that would appear to depend on the model variant - but at least 220 pF.

(...) Disappointed to learn how bad Ortofon Om are bad (but exepensive!)

Well, there's indeed a bit of a response wobble around 500 Hz - but if you look into the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library thread, you can see, that even in case of the regular OMs that wobble is less than +/- 1 dB. And in case of the SuperOMs it's even lesss than that, so anything but huge.

In terms of price-performance AT would indeed appear more attractive, though - but in my view they already were more attractive back in the 80s, so that's nothing new. That being said, I'm not really fond of AT's recent trend towards higher body weight and lower needle compliance.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[SigmaR1]

From a look into the service manual that would appear to depend on the model variant - but at least 220 pF.



Well, there's indeed a bit of a response wobble around 500 Hz - but if you look into the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library thread, you can see, that even in case of the regular OMs that wobble is less than +/- 1 dB. And in case of the SuperOMs it's even lesss than that, so anything but huge.

In terms of price-performance AT would indeed appear more attractive, though - but in my view they already were more attractive back in the 80s, so that's nothing new. That being said, I'm not really fond of AT's recent trend towards higher body weight and lower needle compliance.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

Thank you Lini. 220 for the preamplifier, 150 to 200 for the cs5000, that may be a no go for AT MM carts...

I had a look on the nice thread dedicated to cart measurements (huge work!), and the super om30 did not appear so bad to me compared to other MM carts (ironically, the best performers would send shivers down the spine of anyone familiar with digital device specifications )

Lini, according to you what are the drawbacks of heaviers carte with lower compliance? Heavy arm requirement ?