A Short History of High-End Audio Cables

[Julf]

True, but....

People have been speaking up against cable snake oil for decades.

I see no evidence that small scale interventions via internet debate moves the needle. Audioquest and Nordost are just as rich as ever.

Now a lawsuit, on the other hand, or a complaint to regulatory bodies about false advertising, that might be a different story.

I think both are needed. Regulatory approaches (especially in consumer-friendly countries) might help with the false advertising, but we have seen that it mostly makes the woo merchants move from direct claims to "customer testimonials" (or as in the case of some, listing useless US patents to make it appear that their "science" is legitimate). Small scale interventions helps inform people, and show there is not a unanimous consensus behind the claims.

 

[watchnerd]

Small scale interventions helps inform people, and show there is not a unanimous consensus behind the claims.

But is that effective?

It's easy to confuse activity with outcomes.

 

[Julf]

But is that effective?

Anecdotally yes - I have come across a bunch of people who have stated "I used to believe the woo...", but objective studies are needed. Any psycologists/sociologists/behavioral scientists here?

 

[watchnerd]

Anecdotally yes - I have come across a bunch of people who have stated "I used to believe the woo...", but objective studies are needed. Any psycologists/sociologists/behavioral scientists here?

Perhaps ASR should fund a booth at a major high end show with a DBT cable test.

This would not only be an act of activism, but actually gather data.

Heck, perhaps the data could then be used to write an AES paper.

 

[BDWoody]

Anecdotally yes - I have come across a bunch of people who have stated "I used to believe the woo...", but objective studies are needed. Any psycologists/sociologists/behavioral scientists here?

There are many of us on this forum who used to be in the cult.

In some ways, people receive an intervention of sorts when they come on here and ask about how some cable, DAC, sound isolator, whatever... sounds. In some cases, people actually learn.

Take the victories where you find them. One audiophool at a time.

 

[ahofer]

True, but....

People have been speaking up against cable snake oil for decades.

I see no evidence that small scale interventions via internet debate moves the needle. Audioquest and Nordost are just as rich as ever.

Now a lawsuit, on the other hand, or a complaint to regulatory bodies about false advertising, that might be a different story.

I don't know how you could estimate movement of the needle - counterfactuals?

I suspect some sort of industry certification (AES) would never get off the ground. Even that the company's technical claims are 'plausible'.

I sent Teo Audio's page to a Physics professor, his response was "ridiculous - why do you waste your time with this stuff". Suggests the level of interest in combating it.

Speaking of Physics professors, this guy was my mentor and fellow audiophile way back in college - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_R._Bennett_Jr.

He had huge Acoustat speakers and I vividly remember him hooking up his first (Hitachi) CD player. He was very excited, not least because his own inventions were part of the research debt of the CD. Before the CD he built his own turntable using the flywheel of a truck in order to reduce pitch variation. "Has a bit of a problem with rumble, though", I remember him saying.

He used a laser pointer the size of a large brick in his classes. Once he left it on and wrote on the board, with the point jiggling on his butt. Suddenly he turned around and said "oops, I'm being ultraviolated!". I think he set that one up. I do miss him.

He was not into fancy wire, apart from heavy guage.

 

[mannye]

wow... a cable thread.

At least this place is called Audio SCIENCE Review and reading through the thread, I'm glad no one jumps at the mention of the evil DBT.

If cables make a difference, put on a blindfold and tell me when you're hearing the $1,000 per meter cables vs regular, well constructed and shielded speaker cables and ICs. Have a room put on a bunch of blindfolds and have them all raise their hands when the .99999999999 copper is being used vs the regular copper.

I'll pay a reasonable amount for well constructed cables with nice connectors and even more for custom lengths.....because everyone knows that a system sounds better when the cables look neat and tidy in the back ...... but I've tried out plenty of the elite, 100% silver, cryo-treated, nonsense and the only effect they had was to lighten my wallet... would have had, actually because I never heard a difference.

 

[DonH56]

I have recently conducted experiments, albeit not DBT, and verified that in fact the material from which speaker cables are constructed can have a profound impact on the sound. My friends heard it, and of course my wife in the kitchen upstairs heard it as well. And I can confirm the difference with measurements clearly showing significant differences in speaker response using the two materials in question, which were:

1. 10 AWG stranded copper from Home Depot; and,
2. Nylon rope from Wal-Mart.

There was virtually no sound using the much cheaper nylon rope, and the sound was rich and full using the much more expensive copper cable. Clearly better quality material from a higher-end store sounds and measures better.

Case closed.

 

[DonH56]

Forgot the simulation results (only went out to 100 kHz; use 1 m-ohm and 30 pF per foot for the cable, 10' long, and ideal 8-ohm load, and note the lower limit was set by simulation resolution).

 

[Juhazi]

I trust your listening impression more than simulation!

ps. nice sig, DonH56!

 

[watchnerd]

I don't know how you could estimate movement of the needle - counterfactuals?

Cable companies going bankrupt instead of getting richer and spawning imitators.

 

[watchnerd]

Forgot the simulation results (only went out to 100 kHz; use 1 m-ohm and 30 pF per foot for the cable, 10' long, and ideal 8-ohm load).

View attachment 33363

Sheesh....that's not even close to being good enough for the 192 dB dynamic range of my 32bit high resolution audio files...

 

[mannye]

But...but... look how pretty they are!!!!

WHY do I get sucked into this? lol... I'm done.

 

[Soniclife]

But is that effective?

I doubt conversion of lots of people from their false beliefs is possible, but info might slow the take up of new suckers.

It's the insane rising prices of cables proof that fewer fools are being taken in?

 

[jsrtheta]

I doubt conversion of lots of people from their false beliefs is possible, but info might slow the take up of new suckers.

It's the insane rising prices of cables proof that fewer fools are being taken in?

Insane prices are hardly new. Ray Kimber was offering a 4' pair of speaker cables for $15,000 back in the '90s.

 

[raif71]

 

[ajawamnet]

Guys like that are what keep cable companies in business...

If someone selling/talking about cables can't reference this:

(PDF Here: https://archive.org/details/TheoryAndProblemsOfTransmissionLines )

... or knows who this guy is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Heaviside

... Or what this is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_chart

Or can't explain the properties of this:

(hey - it's that guy again...)

...then I just shut off and walk away...


"When you listen to most audio cable companies, you make bad decisions..."

"Quit breathing on me!"

 

[DonH56]

Phillip Smith had quite a run: https://ethw.org/Oral-History:Philip_H._Smith

p.s. I have to look most stuff up though I generally have some idea of things... Minds me of my oft-told tale of a friend applying for a PhD program many years ago. They sent him round-robin to be interviewed by various professors. He was a sharp guy but was feeling pretty beat up by the end of the day. The last guy was the EM prof, who drew an RLC circuit with a switch on a piece of paper and shoved it across the desk, asking him to solve for the voltage. After a half-second or so of thinking "I can do this!" the prof said "Using Maxwell's equations". Ugh. Things we should know but don't really...

 

[ahofer]

Guys like that are what keep cable companies in business...

If someone selling/talking about cables can't reference this:
View attachment 36353
(PDF Here: https://archive.org/details/TheoryAndProblemsOfTransmissionLines )

... or knows who this guy is:
View attachment 36354
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Heaviside

... Or what this is:
View attachment 36355


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_chart

Or can't explain the properties of this:
View attachment 36356
(hey - it's that guy again...)

...then I just shut off and walk away...


"When you listen to most audio cable companies, you make bad decisions..."
View attachment 36357
"Quit breathing on me!"

As a Bayesian, but non-engineer, I have a simpler test: prove to me one can hear a difference, or it’s just too improbable to waste my time on.

 

[GradyBeach247]

I said cable lifters in your HOME don't have a ground plane. In fact my cables are always on lifters, 2X8 fir or spruce on 16" centers with an oak spacer.

That just floors me...