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A response to "Grinding your own gears" by John H. Darko

BDWoody

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He clearly takes time over his work, whereas Amir makes it clear he is often in a rush, doesn’t test something because he can’t find a probe etc and this is a sideline to his day job. Many do well produced videos, but it takes time and effort.

So, it's about the form over the substance? Sort of like the whole 'high end' industry. Just make the sale entertaining...who cares if it is total bullshit.
 

Jimbob54

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So, it's about the form over the substance? Sort of like the whole 'high end' industry. Just make the sale entertaining...who cares if it is total bullshit.
Exactly that. Keep up the image of quality. Apart from Guttenberg, who has the whole kooky nutty professor wildcard thing but spouts equal nonsense
 

Jimbob54

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The thing about Darko is that he comes across as a totally OK guy you’d happy to have a drink with in the pub, you’d also talk about the footie, he’s not in the least condescending or fundamentalist and people are happy to watch His videos for 15 minutes. He has a good written style. He clearly takes time over his work, whereas Amir makes it clear he is often in a rush, doesn’t test something because he can’t find a probe etc and this is a sideline to his day job. Many do well produced videos, but it takes time and effort.

Darko‘s role is to provide sensible guidance to users of consumer audio. This includes aesthetics, functionality and pricing, and he is one of the few people to compare products side by side. People like him because he doesn’t go on about cardioid dispersion. He would lose much of his large audience.

Audio equipment has been measured in magazines for almost 100 years. It’s nothing new. Trashing someone who does something extremely well, even if you don’t agree with it, does not seem to be a healthy attitude, which is why, however useful this forum is, it is generally disliked elsewhere, primarily for its narrow-minded attitude.

No, his role is to make money from sponsors and ads. He does this by "reviewing" often disproportionately expensive products or products whose performance might be less than price or image or blurb may suggest.
 

Gabs

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I may be wrong but I think actually there is room for everyone, nobody is wrong.
We always find new ways to waste our money, so if for some it's thousands of dollars in USB cables...why not ?
Of course, after that it's important to know what is objectively good and what's not. Some of us want to spend our money well :)
I have a Mira Gino and I'm sure that it's way better than "your" Porsche, Mercedes, Tesla, Corvette for everyday use ;-p
I will never waste my money to buy of build a house except a Tiny House, and I think everyone else is wrong.
We could make endless lists like this.
So the more I keep on the audio journey, the more I think arguments or counter-arguments to objective vs subjective audio is objectively a huge waste of time. I prefer to listen to my "good enough for the price" audio gear in my tiny house :)
 

BDWoody

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nobody is wrong.

Darko is 'wrong' a lot... He says things that are nonsense and misleading. I don't know (or care) if he is simply ignorant of actual science...but what he puts out is a joke.
 

Gabs

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Darko is 'wrong' a lot... He says things that are nonsense and misleading. I don't know (or care) if he is simply ignorant of actual science...but what he puts out is a joke.
That not important at all, who cares ? If he manages to fool people to waste their money, maybe it's because people WANT to waste their money.
Do you see what I try to mean ?
 

BDWoody

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That not important at all, who cares ? If he manages to fool people to waste their money, maybe it's because people WANT to waste their money.
Do you see what I try to mean ?

What if he's outright lying? Would that change anything? People who put out bullshit to deceive others and take advantage of their gullibility for profit should be called out.

How about health products? How about safety products? Just a shame people can't find honest work...
 

Jimbob54

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That not important at all, who cares ? If he manages to fool people to waste their money, maybe it's because people WANT to waste their money.
Do you see what I try to mean ?

The criticism applies equally to any solely subjective reviewer. Where audio reviews fall down is you quickly realise very little gets negative or neutral reviews.

So if you have cheap interconnects etc and watch him review expensive versions of such paraphernalia, the glowing descriptions rarely have a base reference. Everything has "more" intangible fluff. Except, it actually doesn't. So either the reviewer is swayed by price and marketing or (dare I say it) advocating for the product /brand.
 

Gabs

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What if he's outright lying? Would that change anything? People who put out bullshit to deceive others and take advantage of their gullibility for profit should be called out.

How about health products? How about safety products? Just a shame people can't find honest work...
Maybe focusing on destroying bullshitness on health or safety products would be better.
But I get it, I'm wrong, everyone can focus on everything by will. I just can't understand the audio fuss.
 

Gabs

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The criticism applies equally to any solely subjective reviewer. Where audio reviews fall down is you quickly realise very little gets negative or neutral reviews.

So if you have cheap interconnects etc and watch him review expensive versions of such paraphernalia, the glowing descriptions rarely have a base reference. Everything has "more" intangible fluff. Except, it actually doesn't. So either the reviewer is swayed by price and marketing or (dare I say it) advocating for the product /brand.
Yes, but as an example here we are not fools to that. People that believe voodoo audio may not want to bother and waste their money to show they have the money to buy the stuff, to show they are at higher rank in the subjective comunity.
 

Gabs

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I think the solution is to make fancy good measured equipment. Maybe Topping should work on that, to flirt with the subjectives. Something like that.
Or make a D90 special edition at 3000 dollars in an exotic shell.
 

Jimbob54

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There is plenty of that about, look at the charts and see what's at the top.
I think the solution is to make fancy good measured equipment. Maybe Topping should work on that, to flirt with the subjectives. Something like that.
Or make a D90 special edition at 3000 dollars in an exotic shell.
.
 

Gabs

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There is plenty of that about, look at the charts and see what's at the top.

.
So what about fancy cables ? "We made a cable that is not faulty, with beautiful colors, fancy fabric and extra personalisation !" would be fair enough.
 

sergeauckland

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So what about fancy cables ? "We made a cable that is not faulty, with beautiful colors, fancy fabric and extra personalisation !" would be fair enough.
It conducts electricity would be fair enough.
What gets me is that most cables have either semi-pornographic descriptions of the sound or ludicrously idiotic technical descriptions, with graphs at GHz frequencies showing what they're claimed to be doing.

Provide RCL parameters and characteristic impedance (for digital or RF cables) and leave it at that.

S.
 

Jinjuku

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whereas Amir makes it clear he is often in a rush, doesn’t test something because he can’t find a probe etc and this is a sideline to his day job. Many do well produced videos, but it takes time and effort.

I'd rather time be taken in the actual testing and evaluation than in the edit suite polishing turds.
 

balletboy

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I think the solution is to make fancy good measured equipment. Maybe Topping should work on that, to flirt with the subjectives. Something like that.
Or make a D90 special edition at 3000 dollars in an exotic shell.

There are plenty of consumer brand DACs at the same price point as the Topping D90. The last DAC I owned was the superb Audiolab MDAC+, cost me £650 new, £50 cheaper than the Topping D90 and probably better.

People who buy more expensive DACs might use different criteria, but they are unlikely to be idiots. They tend to have money because they are good at something.
 

Gabs

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There are plenty of consumer brand DACs at the same price point as the Topping D90. The last DAC I owned was the superb Audiolab MDAC+, cost me £650 new, £50 cheaper than the Topping D90 and probably better.

People who buy more expensive DACs might use different criteria, but they are unlikely to be idiots. They tend to have money because they are good at something.
Well maybe I did not understand (english is not my language) but I think it's up to everybody to chose what to spend their money, on DACs that measure well, or for fancy ones that are bad... But what I say is that maybe it's a waste of time to try to change subjectivists or the "unawares" minds. A lot of people by things expensive, just because they are expensive.
 

BDWoody

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Well maybe I did not understand (english is not my language) but I think it's up to everybody to chose what to spend their money, on DACs that measure well, or for fancy ones that are bad... But what I say is that maybe it's a waste of time to try to change subjectivists or the "unawares" minds. A lot of people by things expensive, just because they are expensive.

That's all great, as long as people aren't lying and deceiving those who may be 'unaware,' creating a false narrative purely designed to mislead. Sell stuff on actual merits...don't make up new physics. The old physics works great.
 

Jimbob54

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There are plenty of consumer brand DACs at the same price point as the Topping D90. The last DAC I owned was the superb Audiolab MDAC+, cost me £650 new, £50 cheaper than the Topping D90 and probably better.

People who buy more expensive DACs might use different criteria, but they are unlikely to be idiots. They tend to have money because they are good at something.

And therein lies the issue with Darko et al. You just fell into the same mode of thinking. The Audiolab is "probably better" than the D90. Why? Based on what criteria?

Im not saying it is or it isnt. I dont know. I know only one thing, its the best Dac in that pairing made by Audiolab.

No amount of praise by any number if subjective reviewers actually makes it the better DAC.

A suite of better measurements or a well conducted, wide ranging double blind testing with a statistically significant preference would be the only valid reasons for saying that.

And id bet a large amount of my piggy bank that in that test, people couldn't differentiate.
 
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