A reasonable (AB class) replacement for Yamaha A-S801 integrated amp

[DanielT]

Yup. I think you're right.

You are right. So why not investigate:
What the listening room looks like, what kind of music OP listens to and generally how loud (what do they require for amplification)? In relation to the speakers:

FM-30 Three-Way Passive Floorstanding Speaker

The price is for a pair. Our small and discrete floorstanding speaker does not only feature an unprecedented style and elegance, but also a full blown high end performance. Learn more about the 2021 update here

www.gato-audio.com

How big demands they make on the amplifier? Enough pure watts so that the amplifier is not driven into the clipping. After that, the appropriate amplifier is selected. If OP looking for some features, or special design / appearance then it is considered.

If there is something wrong with this particular amp that OP have, then new thread and troubleshooting.

 

[ZolaIII]

Also we need to see how those are connected (if bi amped and falling low at 2 Ohm's which wouldn't be a wonder as they are declared 4). Somehow as much as I remember Yamaha doesn't recommend lass than 6 Ohm's and 16 (2x8) for bi amping when it comes to those. I love when manufacturer doesn't give RMS rating and min - max differ from source to source.

 

[DanielT]

Also we need to see how those are connected (if bi amped and falling low at 2 Ohm's which wouldn't be a wonder as they are declared 4). Somehow as much as I remember Yamaha doesn't recommend lass than 6 Ohm's and 16 (2x8) for bi amping when it comes to those. I love when manufacturer doesn't give RMS rating and min - max differ from source to source.

Aha.

Regarding the speakers:
FM-30
CONNECTORS Gold plated binding post / 4mm Plugs, bi-wire

But keep the A-S801 and add an amplifier to and bi-wire them?

 

[ZolaIII]

@DanielT it's more like try to pair them with an amp that has great tolerance on lo impedance loads and still a deacent power output headroom if you already have them and try to avoid those in the first place.

 

[Mieczyslaw1977]

@DanielT it's more like try to pair them with an amp that has great tolerance on lo impedance loads and still a deacent power output headroom if you already have them and try to avoid those in the first place.

I have two pairs of speakers, they are connected in parallel, but I never use them at the same time (either A or B, never A+B).

1) The old ones, Castle Knight 2, they are 8 Ohms nominal and real. They have not only been "tested", but measured here. They have a 6 Ohm minimum at about 150 Hz, so they are real 8 Ohms speakers, and the impedance graph looks "healthy" (though very small).

I have never had any problems with driving them, even while using a small stereo amplituner from Denon (RMS 2x30W @ 6 Ohms) ages ago... However they seem to be more power hungry than the new ones and they don't play as loud at the same volume levels, probably due to the rather moderate sensitivity (measured 84 dB).

2) I had bought the Gato Audio FM-30 a year ago (December 2020), before they introduced the MK2 version and the price went up. I've been very satisfied with them so far, both in terms how they look, and how they sound. However, they have been "tested", but not measured, so we don't know the impedance graph, and how low it could possibly drop...
They are bi-wired only, using factory terminated bi-wire cables (4 x 10 AWG), so there are 4 cables inside each lead, twisted together from the amplifier's side, and separate from the speakers' side. The lower terminal is responsible for the double bass woofers, while the upper one for midrange speaker and the tweeter.

• Do you suspect the impedance can drop so low, that the A-S801 might have problems with them? For example in low frequencies, hence the disappearing bass issue (it was horrible last night).
• Also, I left the impedance switch set to "high" (6 Ohms minimum), as suggested by Audioholics in the review. Should try to set it to "low" (4 Ohms) and hear/see, what happens? They wrote the A-S801 can drive 4 Ohm speakers with ease, but I suppose they meant real 4 Ohms.
• Putting the sentiments for upper Yamaha's integrated amps range aside (for a moment), do you think that the mentioned Rotel 1592 mk2 could drive them more easily? It is actually double so strong in the power amp section than my Yamaha.

 

[ZolaIII]

I think impedance switch is only a resistor but it won't hurt trying. Try to do couple days with old one's and see if it persist and same with new and switch.
Best regards.

 

[Mieczyslaw1977]

I think impedance switch is only a resistor but it won't hurt trying. Try to do couple days with old one's and see if it persist and same with new and switch.
Best regards.

Thanks a lot for the advice. That's what I'm going to do...

BTW. Gato Audio also produces integrated amplifiers (class AB and class D). The prices dropped down by 40% 2019/2020, because they had said "goodbye" to all official distributors around the world. That's how much the distributors steal/take. Both class D models have been tested an measured, though they don't measure as well as the above mentioned Rotel RA-1592 mk2, apart from pure power.

https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/wzmacniacze-stereo/2744-gato-audio-dia-250s
(current price 11.500 PLN, less than 3k USD, so within my range)

https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/wzmacniacze-stereo/2668-gato-audio-dia-400s
(current price 16.000 PLN, so about 4k USD, so I would have to wait and spare )

 

[ZolaIII]

I certainly won't tell you how to spend your hard earned money but relax and take your time. From class G-H (which actually isn't class D!) see what's available from one's with HyperX modules but locally or in EU produced.

 

[DanielT]

Read about this:

NAD 2200 Vintage Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of a refurbished and upgraded NAD 2200 stereo amplifier. It was bought by a member, sent to QuirkAudio to be fully updated and then loaned to me. The work that Peter has done is exemplary. The inside looks brand new! I have repaired hundreds of...

audiosciencereview.com

Then it hit me. NAD is usually good at coping with low ohms, right? Generally that is.

Now I do not mean that this in the link above can be an alternative. Or it is clear that it can, if one is well serviced, possibly change (if necessary) electronics in. In any case, NAD, the brand already mentioned in this thread might be something?

Edit:
My general tip when buying old amplifiers. Examine noise level. They MAY (note may) have a annoyed loudly humming from transformer. It is of course a matter of taste how high such a noise/sound you can accept. You who write in this thread probably know this. Mention it only in passing to others reading this thread.

 

[Willem]

Don't look for solutions until you know what is your problem.

 

[Mieczyslaw1977]

Don't look for solutions until you know what is your problem.

Exactly, so I started from the foundations and borrowed the above mentioned LAB12 Gordian power analyser & conditioner to check and measure the quality of electrical network in my flat. BTW. the distributor in Germany offers a free one week test, and in Poland I had to pay a deposit and they will charge me, if I don't return it next week. The device has been tested here (in Polish), yet without any measurements, but on the other hand whole lot of information about the internals (and photos).

This is, what I found out yesterday and today (it came on Friday):

1) The voltage is rock solid, stays about 240V, with fluctuations between 237V and 241V. No problems here.
2) The frequency sine wave is almost perfect at 50Hz, varying between 49,9XX Hz and 50,0XX Hz. OK!
3) The DC voltage is almost non existent: 0,000V - 0,00X V.

My conclusion is, correct me if I'm wrong, the quality of my electrical network is rather good, and I cannot complain.

The second part, however, doesn't look so nice:
4) Input EMI is between 20 and 25 mV - I don't know, if its much or not, but since it's mV, I assume there is no problem here, isn't it?
5) Voltage THD stays about 2,50% - again, I have no experience with such measurements, so I cannot draw a conclusion (?).
6) Current THD is really high, it is about 70,00% (everything is on and playing at low volume levels) at the moment. When I turn on my audio devices it is growing, with my A-S801 it rises by 20-30%, and the Jay's Audio CD Transport another 20%, while my little Topping is clean.

Is it possible, that my audio devices are cross contaminating each other? Would a decent power strip with sockets connected in pararell (star-wired) be enough (no filtering voodoo)?

 

[TheBatsEar]

This picture comes from a German review of Yamaha A-S2200. They introduced toroidal transformers in the new 1XXX/2XXX/3XXX series.

Yeah, you are correct and i'm an idiot. It is a A-S 1200 or 2200 indeed. The previous models had the oval transformer.

 

[LTig]

[..] This is, what I found out yesterday and today (it came on Friday):

1) The voltage is rock solid, stays about 240V, with fluctuations between 237V and 241V. No problems here.
2) The frequency sine wave is almost perfect at 50Hz, varying between 49,9XX Hz and 50,0XX Hz. OK!
3) The DC voltage is almost non existent: 0,000V - 0,00X V.

My conclusion is, correct me if I'm wrong, the quality of my electrical network is rather good, and I cannot complain.

This is correct.

The second part, however, doesn't look so nice:
4) Input EMI is between 20 and 25 mV - I don't know, if its much or not, but since it's mV, I assume there is no problem here, isn't it?
5) Voltage THD stays about 2,50% - again, I have no experience with such measurements, so I cannot draw a conclusion (?).
6) Current THD is really high, it is about 70,00% (everything is on and playing at low volume levels) at the moment. When I turn on my audio devices it is growing, with my A-S801 it rises by 20-30%, and the Jay's Audio CD Transport another 20%, while my little Topping is clean.

Is it possible, that my audio devices are cross contaminating each other? Would a decent power strip with sockets connected in pararell (star-wired) be enough (no filtering voodoo)?

There's nothing to worry about. EMI is very low (25 mV riding on 240V). Voltage THD is no problem. Current THD is may be caused by power supplies drawing current for short times only (even linear ones) when the sinus is close to its maximum.

 

[Mieczyslaw1977]

This is correct.

There's nothing to worry about. EMI is very low (25 mV riding on 240V). Voltage THD is no problem. Current THD is may be caused by power supplies drawing current for short times only (even linear ones) when the sinus is close to its maximum.

Thank you very much for your answer and explanations.
To sum the things up:

• My electrical network is "healthy" (in good condition): all the basic parameters are very good, and there is no DC issue, nor any heavy EMI.
• So I don't need any esoteric power filters/conditioners, since they will not improve anything, can even make things worse.

Subjectively I couldn't hear any significant improvements concerning the sound of my audio system. I even had an impression the dynamic was worse. Since I didn't want to unplug everything, I only disconnected my A-S801 and plugged it into the NuPrime Pure AC-4, and then to the other socket in the wall. There was an audible improvement in the bass (more audible, going deeper, stronger), macrodynamics, and transparency. I've read all the reviews of LAB12 Gordian (one in Polish, few in English, and whole lot in German): they always stated it didn't influence the dynamics. Well, I personally experienced something else... and this was against a device that costed more or less half the price of the Gordian. I will be returning it the coming week, and get my caution/money back.

I'm slightly leaning towards the thesis, that my A-S801 might have some problems with the nominal 4Ohm impedance of the speakers. 4Ohms real wouldn't be a problem, as measured by Audioholics, but if it drops below, than the THD will rise. I hadn't had any issues with the old speakers.

 

[Slayer]

Thank you very much for your answer and explanations.
To sum the things up:

• My electrical network is "healthy" (in good condition): all the basic parameters are very good, and there is no DC issue, nor any heavy EMI.
• So I don't need any esoteric power filters/conditioners, since they will not improve anything, can even make things worse.

Subjectively I couldn't hear any significant improvements concerning the sound of my audio system. I even had an impression the dynamic was worse. Since I didn't want to unplug everything, I only disconnected my A-S801 and plugged it into the NuPrime Pure AC-4, and then to the other socket in the wall. There was an audible improvement in the bass (more audible, going deeper, stronger), macrodynamics, and transparency. I've read all the reviews of LAB12 Gordian (one in Polish, few in English, and whole lot in German): they always stated it didn't influence the dynamics. Well, I personally experienced something else... and this was against a device that costed more or less half the price of the Gordian. I will be returning it the coming week, and get my caution/money back.

I'm slightly leaning towards the thesis, that my A-S801 might have some problems with the nominal 4Ohm impedance of the speakers. 4Ohms real wouldn't be a problem, as measured by Audioholics, but if it drops below, than the THD will rise. I hadn't had any issues with the old speakers.

If you have budget of 3k and are intent on new gear. Here is a possibility that I think you would be verry happy with.
RME ADI-2 or Parasound Halo P6
Anthem MCA 225
120db SNR
225 watts @8ohm 400 watts @4ohm 600 watts @2ohm

 

[Mieczyslaw1977]

So I returned the LAB12 Gordian last week: the distributor/shop received it on Friday, on Saturday they wrote that everything was fine, and I got my deposit/money back on Monday.

Back to the weird sound degradation issues I happen to have from time to time:\

1) Option no. 1 is that my A-S801 can't cope with low impedance (probably dropping beneath the nominal 4 Ohms) of my Gato Audio FM-30 speakers, and I need something more powerful to drive them properly. This matter has already been discussed above.

2) Option no. 2 is more complicated: is it possible/probable that I get some sort of overdrive in the preamplifier section of my A-S801?

Here we go:

• My Topping gives 2,5V on the RCA outputs (and 5,0V on the XLR outputs) in the DAC mode.
• Yamaha has a standard 200mV input sensitivity and very low tolerance to higher voltages.
• Hence, in the higher models of their integrated amps there is an attenuator (-6dB) switch by the XLR inputs.
• In case of my A-S801 the value is fixed, and it so happens the maximum input voltage tolerance is very low:

https://www.search-manual.com/yamaha-a-s801-integrated-amplifier-176270-manual
https://manualzz.com/doc/en/5299323/yamaha-a-s801-owner-s-manual

Maximum Input Voltage

Phono (MM) (1 kHz, 0.03% THD): ≥45 mV CD, etc. (1 kHz, 0.5% THD): ≥2.2 V

Edit: Yes, I tried to put my Topping D70S MQA into PRE mode, and lower the output voltage by lowering the volume. It led to massive sound degradation, as the power amp section in the A-S801 had like two pre-amplifiers at the same time. Hence my conclusion, in case of integrated amplifiers the little Topping should be used in the DAC mode only.

The sound with the volume knob at 9 o'clock is much louder with the Topping than with my old CD-player (Yamaha CD-S700), and some other sources I used to test in the past (like e.g. Pioneer PD-70AE or Technics SL-G700). So is it possible/probable that some sort of overdrive happens in the preamplifier section of my A-S801, before the power amp section reaches its limits?

PS. Rotel has much higher tolerances for Line-In inputs: 4V for RCA and 5,5V for XLR (measured even higher).

 

[Robert C]

This amp has a switch on the back for 4 and 8 ohm speakers (I think). Is it in the correct position? I remember reading some discussion about how setting this incorrectly halves the amp's output or something like that.

Why not connect the topping to the amp digitally?

 

[Mieczyslaw1977]

This amp has a switch on the back for 4 and 8 ohm speakers (I think). Is it in the correct position? I remember reading some discussion about how setting this incorrectly halves the amp's output or something like that.

Why not connect the topping to the amp digitally?

Yeah, it has got an impedance switch at the back, which is currently at 8 Ohm setting. With a 4 Ohm setting it limits the output power, as described by Audioholics here.

There is a dreaded impedance switch on the back of the A-S801 that reduces the output power of this unit for certification purposes only. We recommend leaving it at the default 8 ohm setting and NEVER changing it.

In a Polish test they switched it to 4 Ohms, hence the maximum power (THD+N 1%) was almost equal with 4 Ohm and 8 Ohm loads (132W and 130W respectively), instead of 200W and 125W as measured above in the American review.

Topping D70S MQA has plenty of digital inputs, but only analogue outputs (RCA, XLR). Even if it had a digital output, I would use the old ESS Sabre DAC, which is built in in my A-S801 integrated amp, instead of the double AKM AK4497EQ (Topping), so I don't think it would be a good change.

 

[dualazmak]

Just for your reference, recently (last year) I intensively tested Benchmark AHB2 (Class-A[H]B), Rotel RB-1582 MkII (Class-AB), Accuphase A-36 (Class-A), Teac AX-505 (Class-D), Teac AP-505 (Class-D), Yamaha A-S3000 (Class-AB), Sony TA-A1ES (Quasi Class-A), all in single-amplifier configuration and also in multi-channel multi-amplifier configuration;

- Benchmark AHB2 (class-A[H]B)_Part-1_Comparison with ACCUPHASE E-460 in Single-Amplifier + LC-Network full range reference sound system: #253
- Benchmark AHB2 (class-A[H]B)_Part-2_Incorporation in multichannel multi-amplifier system and Listening sessions: #258, #265

- Rotel RB-1582 MkII (class-AB)_Part-1_Comparison with AccuphaseE-460 and Benchmark AHB2 in single-Amplifier + LC-network full range reference sound system: #263
- Rotel RB-1582 MkII (class-AB)_Part-2_Incorporation in multichannel multi-amplifier system and listening Sessions: #264, #265

- Accuphase A-36 (class-A)_Part-1_In single-amplifier and bi-amplifier + LC-network audio system: #282
- Accuphase A-36 (class-A)_Part-2_In multichannel multi-amplifier audio system: #283

- Teac AX-505 and AP-505 (both class-D)_Part-1_In single-amplifier and bi-amplifier + LC-network audio system: #290
- Teac AX-505 and AP-505 (both class-D)_Part-2_In multichannel multi-amplifier audio system: #291

- Possibilities of Sony TA-A1ES (quasi class-A) and Yamaha A-S3000 (class-AB) in multichannel multi-amplifier project: #302, #305

- Yamaha A-S3000 (class-AB) and Sony TA-A1ES (quasi class-A)_Part-1_In single-amplifier + LC-network full range audio system: #307
- Yamaha A-S3000 (class-AB) and Sony TA-A1ES (quasi class-A)_Part-2_In In bi-amp + LC-network stereo system together with Accuphase E-460: #308
- Yamaha A-S3000 (class-AB) and Sony TA-A1ES (quasi class-A)_Part-3_In multichannel multi-amplifier stereo system together with Accuphase E460: #309

I also had interesting suggestions, even though someone said the suggestions/comments would be fully nonsense;
- Interesting suggestions from an amplifier engineer in Japan on amplifier exploration: #281

 

[JW001]

Yeah, it has got an impedance switch at the back, which is currently at 8 Ohm setting. With a 4 Ohm setting it limits the output power, as described by Audioholics here.

There is a dreaded impedance switch on the back of the A-S801 that reduces the output power of this unit for certification purposes only. We recommend leaving it at the default 8 ohm setting and NEVER changing it.

In a Polish test they switched it to 4 Ohms, hence the maximum power (THD+N 1%) was almost equal with 4 Ohm and 8 Ohm loads (132W and 130W respectively), instead of 200W and 125W as measured above in the American review.

Topping D70S MQA has plenty of digital inputs, but only analogue outputs (RCA, XLR). Even if it had a digital output, I would use the old ESS Sabre DAC, which is built in in my A-S801 integrated amp, instead of the double AKM AK4497EQ (Topping), so I don't think it would be a good change.

All the switch does is it lowers the rail voltage, limiting the output current. If you listen at a relatively low volume, the low-impedance switch position won't impact the sound quality. If, however, you listen to a dynamic music (a symphony could be an example) at a high volume, you may experience amp clipping.