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A no-taking-sides, no judgment classification of the 4 types of Audiophile. "The audiophile bestiary".

birdog1960

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I had a problem with skunks. The neighbors. They would freak out and so did the skunks. NOW that I calmed the neighbors down
the skunks haven't been a problem.

Deer are almost as destructive as pigs. I cleared 3 cabins overran with everything. 4 Jacks took care of that over a 4 day period.
I sprayed over a gallon of concentrated peppermint oil (about 55 gallons). I went back 6 weeks later.
No rats, no deer, no pigs, no puma scat anywhere. LOL Everything stayed away.

I gave up on the surround sound. I have MX120 and a 121, Krell HTs. I don't watch TV and if we concert 2.XX is fine for me.
The wife is a streaming buff. I like CDs, or a TT. Cary, Mcintosh, Nord, Peachtree (it's new). I like tubes though. Have for years
and the winter is coming. Time to swap amps and warm a room or two. I picked up a Herron phono stage.
Yummy addition I been waiting to listen too.

Regards
my dogs got skunked in the garage before guests arrived for Thanksgiving one year. Tomato juice doesn't work but I'm told peroxide and baking soda work well...no data to support. I had a healthkit tube amp, technics turntable with audio technica stylus and electro voice speakers as a kid. loved it. no idea where they are now. my records are in the basement but I used some covers for decoration. the rest is latin to me x Mcintosh -seen one of them once.
 
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ferrellms

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Who cares what "sounds good"? That depends on the listener and any psychological baggage (prejudice, confirmation bias, etc.) that person may carry along and the room of course and the recording too.

Audio gear quality means a single thing - to what extent does the system alter the sound without all that psychological baggage, room effects, etc? Lack of coloration is all that matters. The best way to check that is measuring it. If you don't like accurate sound, suit yourself, you are not getting good audio.

Spinorama with Kippel is as good as you will get.
 

MattHooper

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Who cares what "sounds good"?

*Raises hand.

That depends on the listener and any psychological baggage (prejudice, confirmation bias, etc.) that person may carry along and the room of course and the recording too.

Could be. It can also be the case more than one person has similar tastes, and can agree on what they think "sound's good." You can, for instance, find tons of of devotees to various brands, attracted to particular designs/sound - e.g. Quad, Harbeth, Klipsch, Maggies etc, or devotees to certain types of speaker designs - horns, stats, omnis.

So even on a purely subjective level, there can certainly be some confluence of taste and goals. And then if you know you share a certain type of taste or goals with someone else, you have a basis for communicating about "what sounds good."


Audio gear quality means a single thing - to what extent does the system alter the sound without all that psychological baggage, room effects, etc? Lack of coloration is all that matters. The best way to check that is measuring it. If you don't like accurate sound, suit yourself, you are not getting good audio.

You have asserted your preference, not some objective fact. You may as well have said "Pizza quality means a single thing - the degree to which a pizza conforms to the original Italian/Neapolitan version of Pizza Margherita!!" Some pizza snobs actually will assert such a thing. But they are solipsistically assuming what they value over what others value in pizza.

With audio gear, certainly you can find others who share your goal or preference, so as a group you can agree on that goal or definition. But other groups of people have different preferences and goals. You can define what "Good Audio" means to you; but not for someone else ;-)
 

chorus

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Klemmer, I gotta say you are very good with words and have entertained me well, thanks.
Funny how edgy people get when they feel they have been read.
 

JiiPee

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As far as I'm concerned, it would be perfectly ok, if "Audiophile Subjectivists" would really just maintain that their aim is sound that they subjectively prefer, but that is not always the case.

Especially the subjectivist influencers in HiFi media basically maintain that they have special sound judgement capabilities, and therefore what sounds good to them represents actually objective truth, and the mere mortals with lesser capabilities should just follow their sage advise.
 

birdog1960

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Who cares what "sounds good"? That depends on the listener and any psychological baggage (prejudice, confirmation bias, etc.) that person may carry along and the room of course and the recording too.

Audio gear quality means a single thing - to what extent does the system alter the sound without all that psychological baggage, room effects, etc? Lack of coloration is all that matters. The best way to check that is measuring it. If you don't like accurate sound, suit yourself, you are not getting good audio.

Spinorama with Kippel is as good as you will get.
And who made you the arbiter of what is good? I agree that the goal is to accurately reproduce sound but that is different in different seats in the same orchestra hall so what is accurate? Row A seat8 or row g seat 43. Should we do measurements before choosing seats? https://www.fretboardjournal.com/fe...es-of-guitar-tone-with-pacific-rim-tonewoods/. Discerning the difference between a strad and a copy or different tonewoods of a guitar by ear in an anechoic room seems objective. Perhaps it’s necessary to do all gear tests in such a room to rate equipment?
 
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antcollinet

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And who made you the arbiter of what is good? I agree that the goal is to accurately reproduce sound but that is different in different seats in the same orchestra hall so what is accurate? Row A seat8 or row g seat 43. Should we do measurements before choosing seats? https://www.fretboardjournal.com/fe...es-of-guitar-tone-with-pacific-rim-tonewoods/. Discerning the difference between a strad and a copy or different tonewoods of a guitar by ear in an anechoic room seems objective. Perhaps it’s necessary to do all gear tests in such a room to rate equipment?
"what is good" is not about accurately reproducing the sound in the theatre or auditorium or studio - that is never what is in the recording in any case.

It is about accurately reproducing what is on the CD, or digital file. And accuracy of that is easily determined - at least in the electronic domain.
 

birdog1960

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"what is good" is not about accurately reproducing the sound in the theatre or auditorium or studio - that is never what is in the recording in any case.

It is about accurately reproducing what is on the CD, or digital file. And accuracy of that is easily determined - at least in the electronic domain.
??? Umm…live recordings? So being able to identify a strad from a new violin or being able to tell different Martin or Taylor guitars using stereo equipment doesn’t count? It does to me. I have friends who record and I find it amazing when their recordings sound like they r playing their instruments in my living room ( which some have). Perhaps we all don’t share the same desired outcomes. Ever listen to live Grateful Dead shows recorded on a nice Nakamichi?
 
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ahofer

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Based on this I’m a subjectivist, and that can’t be right.

I know what I like, but more objectivist approaches tell me what’s more likely to endure from one listening session to the next.
 

MattHooper

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"what is good" is not about accurately reproducing the sound in the theatre or auditorium or studio - that is never what is in the recording in any case.

It is about accurately reproducing what is on the CD, or digital file. And accuracy of that is easily determined - at least in the electronic domain.

I certainly have no problem with the fact anyone has such a goal. It's only when this goal is declared as THE standard of "Good" as if it were objectively so above the goals of anyone else, or what anyone else may consider "good." Or if this goal is implied to have entirely tied up all the messy issues of what we want out of our audio systems.

For instance, the tool of "accuracy" makes sense in the set ups we use in my work, e.g. especially mixing theaters etc which are all constructed with the input of acousticians, pinked for neutral response etc. We want to accurately hear the sound quality of the recordings. But the system being "accurate" doesn't entail we are hearing "good" sound quality. We still must discriminate "good" and "bad" sound so as to "fix" the bad sound. So accurate reproduction of the signal is a useful tool, but it's a means to an end, not the end itself. Our end is in seeking "good sound" (which may or may not be accurate). And the only reason we care about manipulating the sound quality to be "better" is that it means the listener will more likely be hearing "better sound" as a result. In other words, at the listener end, "good" sound is the main underlying reason for why anyone wants "better audio gear." So "good sound" is the thread connecting all this, not "accuracy" in of itself.

So what this tells is is that it is "the quality of the sound" that is the underlying principle. "accuracy" can be a means to that end, but is not the end itself.
If it turns out distorting the original signal "sounds good" then THAT is "good" not simply whether it is "accurate."

Similarly, issues we associate with sound quality are not necessarily encoded in the signal itself. Unless one is perhaps so devoted to the signal integrity he wants to listen in an anechoic chamber, the fact is room reflections - not encoded in the signal - affect the qualitative experience of the sound. We know that certain types of room reflection are often seen as preferable and "sounding better" in tests for sound perception. Again, how would it make sense to declare "No, sorry, that's Just Not Good!" Isn't Good Sound - the subjective impression - ultimately the reason we care about all this in the first place?

Also, remember that all the scientifically designed blind tests regarding speaker preferences that so many rely on here were not about "accuracy to the signal" per se, it was simply asking what type of sound people subjectively prefer. That was the criteria for "Good." It happened that a majority preferred a generally neutral speaker presentation - with some variations. But, again, that still had no one-to-one relationship with "accuracy." That's why many of the test tracks were selected for having Good Sound Quality to begin with. If they selected only crappy sounding recordings that wouldn't be helpful, and it may have been that some of the more colored speakers would have been preferred if they better covered up the unpleasant problems in the recordings.

So this is why I argue that just saying "GOOD IS ACCURATELY REPRODUCING THE RECORDED SIGNAL" may be a definition or criteria one person, or group of people adopt. But it's not the only criteria for "good" and it also doesn't neatly solve all the issues or make sense of the underlying motivations for high end audio in the first place.
 
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birdog1960

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I certainly have no problem with the fact anyone has such a goal. It's only when this goal is declared as THE standard of "Good" as if it were objectively so above the goals of anyone else, or what anyone else may consider "good." Or if this goal is implied to have entirely tied up all the messy issues of what we want out of our audio systems.

For instance, the goal of "accuracy" makes sense in the set ups we use in my work, e.g. especially mixing theaters etc which are all constructed with the input of acousticians, pinked for neutral response etc. We want to accurately hear the sound quality of the recordings. But the system being "accurate" doesn't entail we are hearing "good" sound quality. We still must discriminate "good" and "bad" sound. Our aim therefore is not "accurate sound" per se, as some end in itself. Our end is in seeking "good sound" (which may or may not be accurate). And the only reason we care about manipulating the sound quality to be "better" is that it means the listener will more likely be hearing "better sound" as a result.

So what this tells is is that it is "the quality of the sound" that is the underlying principle. "accuracy" can be a means to that end, but is not the end itself.
If it turns out distorting the original signal "sounds good" then THAT is "good" not simply whether it is "accurate."

Similarly, issues we associate with sound quality are not necessarily encoded in the signal itself. Unless one is perhaps so devoted he wants to lisen in an anechoic chamber, the fact is room reflections - not encoded in the signal - affect the qualitative experience of the sound. We know that certain types of room reflection are often seen as preferable and "sounding better" in tests for sound perception. Again, how would it make sense to declare "No, sorry, that's Just Not Good!"
Isn't Good Sound - the subjective impression - ultimately the reason we care about all this in the first place?

Also, remember that all the scientifically designed blind tests regarding speaker preferences that so many rely on here were not about "accuracy to the signal" per se, it was simply asking what type of sound people subjectively prefer. That was the criteria for "Good." It happened that a majority preferred a generally neutral speaker presentation - with some variations. But, again, that still had no one-to-one relationship with "accuracy." That's why many of the test tracks were selected for having Good Sound Quality to begin with. If they selected only crappy sounding recordings that wouldn't be helpful, and it may have been that some of the more colored speakers would have been preferred if they better covered up the unpleasant problems in the recordings.

So this is why I argue that just saying "GOOD IS ACCURATELY REPRODUCING THE RECORDED SIGNAL" may be a definition or criteria one person, or group of people adopt. But it's not the only criteria for "good" and it also doesn't neatly solve all the issues or make sense of the underlying motivations for high end audio in the first place.
Awesome. IMO your argument distills down to real world versus “ideal”. To me the current iteration of an anechoic room is not ideal. Reliving a memorable performance in a comfy room in my home is.
 

pau

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Good song is good song even if its not accurate.
 

Spkrdctr

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I guess in the end, if a person likes what they hear than that is fine for them. This must be why so many people use mediocre headphones, cheap Bluetooth speakers and other inexpensive stuff that has its own cheap sound. For example my JBL Flip 5 does ok for a computer speaker, but I sure would not want to use it in a room as a stereo speaker.
 

MattHooper

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I guess in the end, if a person likes what they hear than that is fine for them. This must be why so many people use mediocre headphones, cheap Bluetooth speakers and other inexpensive stuff that has its own cheap sound. For example my JBL Flip 5 does ok for a computer speaker, but I sure would not want to use it in a room as a stereo speaker.

To be clear: I'm certainly not arguing that goals, like accuracy, are not worthwhile or that "why bother with any notion of good since it's all subjective and arbitrary."

Not at all. There are plenty of excellent reasons for pursuing accuracy - accuracy in microphones, recording equipment, amplifiers, speakers etc. To pick one of countless examples, classical pianists work very hard to gain their level of technique, and clearly put a lot of care in to their performances. If their work is going to be represented on a recording it makes sense they (and the recordists) would care that the dynamics they've worked so hard to achieve, and which are fundamental characteristics of the interpretation, are captured and translated with some accuracy. The same goes for things like the tone/timbre of their instrument and any other important aspects of the sound they are trying to create. Pursuing the ability to record and reproduce these aspects with as little distortion as possible makes all the sense in the world. We could also be talking about reproducing the sound of someone's fender bass, or a drum kit, or electronic instruments like drum machines and keyboards. And there are aspects of accuracy that are pretty reliably related to what people find to sound better. That's one reason why I listen to a system that is capable of far more accuracy, and telling me more about a recording, than the "average non-audiophile music listener."

It's just that it's good to recognize that nonetheless, at bottom, even pursuing accuracy is a choice - a valuation - as to what to pursue, not some Objective Truth Written In A Tablet. But it sure can make sense for a lot of people!
 

antcollinet

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??? Umm…live recordings? So being able to identify a strad from a new violin or being able to tell different Martin or Taylor guitars using stereo equipment doesn’t count? It does to me. I have friends who record and I find it amazing when their recordings sound like they r playing their instruments in my living room ( which some have). Perhaps we all don’t share the same desired outcomes. Ever listen to live Grateful Dead shows recorded on a nice Nakamichi?
Doesnt matter. The recording can only pick up sound from one location. Them what? Do you think the sound engineer doesnt do his job. Bottom line what is on the final recording is not what you heard live. It may sound great. You might think it is the same as being there. It isnt. So playback gear cannot (obviously) be accurate to live. It can only be accurate to the recorded facsimile of it.
 

MattHooper

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Doesnt matter. The recording can only pick up sound from one location. Them what? Do you think the sound engineer doesnt do his job. Bottom line what is on the final recording is not what you heard live. It may sound great. You might think it is the same as being there. It isnt. So playback gear cannot (obviously) be accurate to live. It can only be accurate to the recorded facsimile of it.

I understand the point you want to make, but I find it's being made with at least the implication of an unhelpful Absolutism.

So for instance this:

"Bottom line what is on the final recording is not what you heard live."


Well....yes and no.

Take an example of attending a comedian's performance and then hearing seeing/hearing the recording of that performance. Does it recreate EXACTLY your experience of the performance? No. Does that mean "that isn't what you saw live?" Well...obviously it actually DOES recreate very much of what one saw live.
The words, the jokes, the performance (and if on video, the visuals, setting, etc). So clearly it's unhelpful to just say "That's not what you heard live" without understanding the caveat that, well, in fact a recording CAN represent very much of the information one heard live. Not EXACTLY, but who needs "PERFECTION?"
We can talk about whether a recording gets closer or further away from what one hears in the live instrument/voice or whatever. That is after all what often drives the choices of how to record voices and instruments.

It's just not helpful to have only one concept of accuracy as only binary "accurate or not accurate." Perfection eludes us in virtually in most endevours, which is why it's helpful to think in terms of gradations and sliding scales - more accurate/less accurate. Hence we can talk about systems that sound "more like the the live instruments" or "less like the live instruments." There's no reason to be stuck only evaluating whether a recorded signal is reproduced accurately. And to focus only on that just ignores the particular goals of the recording, some of which may be seeking to reproduce "more of what the live instrument sounded like."

And even if we weren't there at the live event, we can still have enough familiarity with the characteristics of certain instruments, of the human voice etc, to...again on our sliding scale, not some Absolute!...have some idea of whether something sounds "more or less like the real thing."
 

antcollinet

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I understand the point you want to make, but I find it's being made with at least the implication of an unhelpful Absolutism.

So for instance this:

"Bottom line what is on the final recording is not what you heard live."

Well....yes and no.

Take an example of attending a comedian's performance and then hearing seeing/hearing the recording of that performance. Does it recreate EXACTLY your experience of the performance? No. Does that mean "that isn't what you saw live?" Well...obviously it actually DOES recreate very much of what one saw live.
The words, the jokes, the performance (and if on video, the visuals, setting, etc). So clearly it's unhelpful to just say "That's not what you heard live" without understanding the caveat that, well, in fact a recording CAN represent very much of the information one heard live. Not EXACTLY, but who needs "PERFECTION?"
We can talk about whether a recording gets closer or further away from what one hears in the live instrument/voice or whatever. That is after all what often drives the choices of how to record voices and instruments.

It's just not helpful to have only one concept of accuracy as only binary "accurate or not accurate." Perfection eludes us in virtually in most endevours, which is why it's helpful to think in terms of gradations and sliding scales - more accurate/less accurate. Hence we can talk about systems that sound "more like the the live instruments" or "less like the live instruments." There's no reason to be stuck only evaluating whether a recorded signal is reproduced accurately. And to focus only on that just ignores the particular goals of the recording, some of which may be seeking to reproduce "more of what the live instrument sounded like."

And even if we weren't there at the live event, we can still have enough familiarity with the characteristics of certain instruments, of the human voice etc, to...again on our sliding scale, not some Absolute!...have some idea of whether something sounds "more or less like the real thing."


You need to look at @birdog1960 s post I first replied to (and the post he replied to) to understand the context of my reply:
And who made you the arbiter of what is good? I agree that the goal is to accurately reproduce sound but that is different in different seats in the same orchestra hall so what is accurate? Row A seat8 or row g seat 43. Should we do measurements before choosing seats? https://www.fretboardjournal.com/fe...es-of-guitar-tone-with-pacific-rim-tonewoods/. Discerning the difference between a strad and a copy or different tonewoods of a guitar by ear in an anechoic room seems objective. Perhaps it’s necessary to do all gear tests in such a room to rate equipment?
Implying that accuracy cannot be achieved. My statement is simply that, perfect reproduction of what is in the room is not what we are trying to be accurate to - Reproduction equipment can only be accurate to what is in the recording.
 

MattHooper

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You need to look at @birdog1960 s post I first replied to (and the post he replied to) to understand the context of my reply:

Implying that accuracy cannot be achieved. My statement is simply that, perfect reproduction of what is in the room is not what we are trying to be accurate to - Reproduction equipment can only be accurate to what is in the recording.

I did see it and while I think birddog's post was not very clearly stated, I could see he was concerned with a system being able to accurately reproduce the characteristics of instruments - which he elaborated on in a subsequent post. That was his main concern.

So I do still think my caveats were relevant.
 

antcollinet

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I did see it and while I think birddog's post was not very clearly stated, I could see he was concerned with a system being able to accurately reproduce the characteristics of instruments - which he elaborated on in a subsequent post. That was his main concern.

So I do still think my caveats were relevant.


Should we do measurements before choosing seats?

Clearly pouring scorn on the idea of a definition of "good" as being "accurate" since you can't be accurate to your seating position. Whereas the definition of good (Hi FI) is accuracty to the recording, not to a particular listeners experience of a live gig. I don't like "I said he said" threads, so I'll leave it there.
 
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Steven Holt

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You can define what "Good Audio" means to you; but not for someone else ;-)
You have a point -- up to a point. But there has to be some kind of general agreement as to what 'good audio' is. Otherwise, why bother with reviews and measurements at all? Why not say to hell with it and just go out and buy a Bose Wave Radio and be done with it? Probably many do. There will always be disagreement over what is the BEST audio (this is a very healthy thing). But there should be some standards and principles that we can ALL agree on that makes a piece of gear 'good audio'. I mean, we would all take the KEF R3 over the Sony SCSS5, wouldn't we?
 
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