• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

A no-taking-sides, no judgment classification of the 4 types of Audiophile. "The audiophile bestiary".

jwmitchell

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2020
Messages
28
Likes
6
Nothing against Diana Krall, but high-end audio salesman very often use her music as a demo track. Perhaps that's the reference.
OK, got it. I have only been into a high end audio store once since 1985. That was the excellent ”University Audio” in Madison Wisconsin. I think they played both classical and instrumental jazz. I mainly remember the great sounding speakers in their showroom. I can see Diana Krall used for demo as her voice is complementary to good equipment without challenging it much. Thanks! I was not concerned that Diana was being “disrespected” but interesting to have a context.
 

fpitas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
9,885
Likes
14,201
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
She is a fine singer but so often used as reference by audiophiles that she has been overplayed to the point of making it hard to listen to her. stairway to heaven is an amazing song, but if I don’t hear it for another 15 years I’d be more than ok with that if you get my drift.
It's produced by people who know what they're doing, which is to get a smooth, relaxing mix. As a demo it really only illustrates how well that was achieved, it will still sound OK through an old transistor radio.
 

Robbo99999

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
6,973
Likes
6,833
Location
UK
Nothing against Diana Krall, but high-end audio salesman very often use her music as a demo track. Perhaps that's the reference.
About the worst thing you can do for a test track is to use an acoustic voice reference track, assuming Diana Krall falls often into that vein - it's not spectrally dense music and so it's harder to judge tonality, and it probably contains less challenging bass sections (or none). You need busy/spectrally dense tracks to check tonality as well as to start noticing if you can differentiate the various elements from the dense construct. That's what I understand based on what I've read & my experience.
 

fpitas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
9,885
Likes
14,201
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
About the worst thing you can do for a test track is to use an acoustic voice reference track, assuming Diana Krall falls often into that vein - it's not spectrally dense music and so it's harder to judge tonality, and it probably contains less challenging bass sections (or none). You need busy/spectrally dense tracks to check tonality as well as to start noticing if you can differentiate the various elements from the dense construct. That's what I understand based on what I've read & my experience.
Well...yes. They are trying to get you to buy the speaker. It's hardly in their interest to play challenging music.
 

Robbo99999

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
6,973
Likes
6,833
Location
UK
Well...yes. They are trying to get you to buy the speaker. It's hardly in their interest to play challenging music.
Ha, good, we understand each other! I've never demoed equipment in a Hifi Store because my audio purchases have always been based on ASR reviews but for any EQ work I do (on my headphones, and lesser extent speakers as it's more predictable with Amirs anechoic measurements) then I always use said spectrally dense & challenging tracks.
 

fpitas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
9,885
Likes
14,201
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
Ha, good, we understand each other! I've never demoed equipment in a Hifi Store because my audio purchases have always been based on ASR reviews but for any EQ work I do then I always use said spectrally dense & challenging tracks.
I have several "difficult" CDs that were mixed with excessive midrange, or bass, or treble. Some with what I can only call piercing female vocals. If the speakers do a better job than the headphones, I'm happy.
 

Robbo99999

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
6,973
Likes
6,833
Location
UK
I have several "difficult" CDs that were mixed with excessive midrange, or bass, or treble. Some with what I can only call piercing female vocals. If the speakers do a better job than the headphones, I'm happy.
Well, you don't want to be using what you know to be unbalanced tracks to check your systems. I think there is some merit though in trying to compare the sound you get from your known Anechoic Flat speakers (if you have them) vs your headphones - I mean it's difficult to do accurately, and I would probably say not to stress much about it, but if you know your reference tracks well then you can probably compare your speakers vs headphones in a more easy & relaxed way, rather than thinking you suddenly have to chuck your headphones off your head & listen to your speakers and whilst knowing it's difficult to level match the two beyond loose subjectivity. Having a catalogue of good reference tracks that you "constantly" use for EQ comparison purposes is I think one of the most useful facets.
 

fpitas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
9,885
Likes
14,201
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
Well, you don't want to be using what you know to be unbalanced tracks to check your systems. I think there is some merit though in trying to compare the sound you get from your known Anechoic Flat speakers (if you have them) vs your headphones - I mean it's difficult to do accurately, and I would probably say not to stress much about it, but if you know your reference tracks well then you can probably compare your speakers vs headphones in a more easy & relaxed way, rather than thinking you suddenly have to chuck your headphones off your head & listen to your speakers and whilst knowing it's difficult to level match the two beyond loose subjectivity. Having a catalogue of good reference tracks that you "constantly" use for EQ comparison purposes is I think one of the most useful facets.
I don't take the headphones too seriously, unless I hear an obvious problem in the speakers. I have some well-mixed CDs used as sanity checks.
 

DMill

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2022
Messages
917
Likes
1,307
Ha, good, we understand each other! I've never demoed equipment in a Hifi Store because my audio purchases have always been based on ASR reviews but for any EQ work I do (on my headphones, and lesser extent speakers as it's more predictable with Amirs anechoic measurements) then I always use said spectrally dense & challenging tracks.
I can’t say that I don’t miss the brick and mortar hifi stores. But in hindsight they were mostly a terrible place to demo equipment. Pushy salesman, poorly set up rooms, and crowds made them pretty much a waste of time, at least for speakers. I suppose people with big $$$ could schedule private demos, but for most that wasn’t an option.
 

fpitas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
9,885
Likes
14,201
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
Thanks! I try!
I learned tact the hard way, when physicists would proudly present their "design" they had been working with, and I was expected to make a reliable product :facepalm:
 

Robbo99999

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
6,973
Likes
6,833
Location
UK
I can’t say that I don’t miss the brick and mortar hifi stores. But in hindsight they were mostly a terrible place to demo equipment. Pushy salesman, poorly set up rooms, and crowds made them pretty much a waste of time, at least for speakers. I suppose people with big $$$ could schedule private demos, but for most that wasn’t an option.
Ha, yes, you obviously got into Hifi well before me, because brick & mortar never came into my sphere or acknowledgement, ASR was my first proper exposure to real hifi, so I've just built on that since 2019. Demoing could be good, but it's gotta be done right, which is so much easier said than done, just as you outline! Faith in measurements is the right way forward, and then some tweaking based on the measurements and your listening. I can totally understand how the average sales room environment for the punter walking in off the street would be an absolutely terrible way to buy a speaker!
 

Spkrdctr

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 22, 2021
Messages
2,220
Likes
2,943
About the worst thing you can do for a test track is to use an acoustic voice reference track, assuming Diana Krall falls often into that vein - it's not spectrally dense music and so it's harder to judge tonality, and it probably contains less challenging bass sections (or none). You need busy/spectrally dense tracks to check tonality as well as to start noticing if you can differentiate the various elements from the dense construct. That's what I understand based on what I've read & my experience.
Therefor my recommendation of Edgar Winters Frankenstein. Once you get that down in your head, you can listen for all the nuances you want. Really works for listening to the capability of speakers. But you have to really listen to it critically, which I know is hard for most people. I have never tried it with headphones so I'm referring to speakers.
 

mr-audio

Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2021
Messages
40
Likes
45
Hi all, long time listener, first time poster here. Apologies in advance, 1500 word essay incoming:

TL;DR: ITT I try to classify all audiophiles without mocking anyone.

I think it’s amazing how much contributors to this and other forums have advanced the state of the hobby as well as the industry “from the bleachers”, so to speak. I’ve learned a ton just by reading.

It's really great to see how much we accomplish simply by sharing information and opinions online. But it's also a bit sad that the audiophiles seem to argue and disrespect each other so much. There's something like Godwin's Law at work here, where the probability that a slur like "audiophool" or "pedant objectivist" will be used approaches 100% as a thread grows in length.

So, I have something to add to the discussion. Not about the listening equipment, but about the listeners.

Yes, unfortunately I am no engineer - I’m part of the reviled class of subhuman leeches known as marketers. A big part of my job is to study and genuinely understand what motivates people, so we can figure out why they buy the things they buy.

I have been in product (note: NOT the same as engineering) and marketing for most of my career, both in acoustics (slinging pyramid foam on eBay) and consumer audio (Bluetooth speakers & headphones), among several other things. I’ve also been an audio hobbyist since my teens, took an audio minor in college, and have spent time reading discussions on various audio-related forums all the while.

In this time, I have observed that there are fundamentally different audiophile philosophies that don't appear to be clearly understood. While there are more than a few attempts to classify audiophiles out there, none I’ve seen are completely serious, most are jokes, and most tend to confound behaviors and basic motivations.

My goal here is to propose a legitimate way to classify audiophiles - without judgment. My hope is that by doing so, we can argue less, appreciate each other more, and generally get on with discussing audio instead of thinking the other guy is some kind of idiot or lunatic.

With all that incredibly long preamble out of the way, here’s my view of how to classify audiophiles. My goal is to write each description in such a way that the people described would actually (mostly?) agree with it, and that others might start to see the point in it.

Each category is defined by the fundamental philosophy or top priority among the group. You may share behaviors of many groups, but (if I have thought this through correctly) you can’t belong to more than one group.

The Nominal Audiophile: Their most important belief is that a person should not spend more than a certain amount on audio equipment. However, they do want the best sound they can get within that budget (and usually without inconveniencing themselves in any real way.)

This actually describes most people who think about their audio purchases even a little bit… which is not everyone, but it’s some. I classify them as audiophiles, because in any given decision-making they do around audio, “sound quality” (however they understand that term) is their first priority once the budget is met. (I’ve done the research, this is true.)

They DO care about sound, just not as much as self-described audiophiles do. Most of them will start a given comment with “I’m no audiophile,” but we know the truth… they’re still technically audiophiles. The other 3 types of audiophile almost always start out as a Nominal Audiophile before they catch the bug.


The Objectivist Audiophile: Their most important belief is that exact, distortion-free reproduction of the recording is the highest and perhaps only sensible goal of audio equipment.

Objectivists trust numbers over their own ears, and especially other people’s ears. They believe that all audible phenomena are measurable in principle, and many of them believe that all relevant audible phenomena are measurable with existing equipment and psychoacoustics. Objectivists have bravely met the hard truth that even their own ears can’t be trusted, and make the most of it, satisfied in the knowledge they are actually moving ever closer to an authentic version of the true recording.

Objectivists almost always allow some room for preference (at some point, especially with regard to the in-room sound field, even the notion of “fidelity” itself becomes a bit subjective) - but they are much less willing to entertain a preference (even their own) that is for objectively lower-fidelity reproduction.

If the measurements are good and what objectivists hear is bad, the most likely explanation is that the right measurements have not yet been performed, the problem will eventually be rooted out numerically. True objectivists will not slaughter sacred cows, because they don’t care about the concept of “sacred” or even “cow” - they simply want to know whether their pound of beef weighs exactly 453.592 grams.

Objectivists often agree about equipment, because they will tend to read the same measurements, and credible measurements generally trump other opinion-drivers for objectivists. However, objectivists are often troubled by the failure (from their point of view) of other audiophiles to recognize what they see as obvious superiority / inferiority in equipment.

The Subjectivist Audiophile: Their most important belief is simply that audio equipment should sound good to the owner.

“If it sounds good, it is good”. Notably, this is also the dictum of the musician and producer. Their core belief is that they should enjoy what’s coming out of their system - that's what "good" means here, nothing more or less. If the numbers say their sound is flawed, but they like the sound, then to hell with the numbers. Even revising the audio actively and creatively (via DSP, strong tube distortion, etc) is fine within reason.

Subjectivists rarely reject measurements out of hand, and some rely heavily on them to narrow down their choices, but measurements are a means to an end, not the philosophical bedrock of their approach to audio. Subjectivists may or may not totally trust their ears over measurements, but at the end of the day, their ears run the show.

Subjectivists disagree a great deal about equipment, because de gustibus non est disputandum - there’s no accounting for taste. One man’s trash is another man’s favorite tube amp. They also vary in how much faith they place in measurements and specs, opinions of reviewers, feelings about certain types of technology, and so on. As such, what seems obvious to one will seem insane to another - that’s just how it goes.

The Romantic Audiophile: (Romantic in the sense of the romantic authors and composers, not love and marriage.) Their most important beliefs are that the experience matters most, that audio equipment should support the listening experience in any way they see fit, and that human judgment of the experience trumps all other factors.

The difference between the listening experience and good sound seems subtle, but it’s cataclysmically huge. Subjectivists might not agree about what good sound is, but few of them would argue that sufficiently advanced technology could not - in principle - quantify the differences they debate. Romantic Audiophiles feel that the experience of listening, and the impact of equipment on that experience, are fundamentally not quantifiable or reducible, nor is there much point in trying. Placebo effect, DBT ABX, LCR… these things miss the point.

To understand the Romantic Audiophile another way, try to understand this: Is the experience of looking at the Mona Lisa the same as looking at an absolutely identical reproduction of the Mona Lisa? Objectively, of course it is. We just said they’re identical, right? But if you know one is a fake and one is real… you may answer “of course it’s not the same!” One was touched by the hand of Leonardo da Vinci, and one was made in a lab or something. The viewing experience is therefore nothing alike… this is Romantic Audiophilia in a nutshell.

Perhaps counter-intuitively, Romantics don’t actually tend to discount, ignore, or completely disbelieve measurements - but they also believe that a listening experience is genuinely more than the sum of its parts. They also tend to doubt that measurements capture everything they hear. For Romantics, measurements are more like the index page of a book than the whole story.

Romantics surprisingly don’t often seem to disagree much about decent equipment, but very rarely place another person’s account of a listening experience above their own. They can appreciate the experiences a wide variety of equipment can provide, without attempting to create a ranking, they are often content to simply describe. Romantics have a hard time understanding the Objectivist fixation on measurements above experience (since they value experience above all), and don't really care if their purchases make sense to anyone else. Acquiring strange new gear really is their hobby, because that's a way to create a new experience, regardless of what it "actually" sounds like.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ultimately, I think all of these points of view are valid in their own right. There is no single correct way to enjoy listening to music. (Objectivists might have a hard time with this... I do... but remember that "lower distortion is better" is still just an opinion.)

I count myself in the Objectivist segment, maybe the Romantic segment only while at concerts… Whatever your ‘alignment’, It’s easy to see how we might end up misunderstanding each other. Although we’re all “audiophiles”, we approach the same equipment with divergent goals.

It’s as if we have whiskey, water, and gatorade drinkers all discussing “drinking” and “beverages”, but without having first understood inebriation, thirst, or exercise. Each will seem slightly insane to the others.

I should also note that this doesn’t describe every variance of opinion I’ve noticed, nor every type of audio buyer. Another big split in opinion is whether ‘apparent resemblance to a live performance’ is the most appropriate goal of fidelity or not. There are non-audiophile budget-driven buyers who simply want to hear something louder than their phone or TV. And there are conspicuous-consumption buyers who buy expensive speakers for the same reason they buy expensive cars they don’t know how to drive properly.

Anyway, I'm interested in whether these descriptions make sense to people, hopefully they are not offensive to anyone!
I appreciate and agree with this categorization. It’s simple enough to be useful and sufficiently describes the majority of types. I find it very useful also to help think thru ones perception of some review or opinion or your own systems. My garage stereo is ‘Nominally’ good for me. My Basement system is more a ‘Romantic’ setup, and my office a more ‘Subjective’ one.

So thanks!!!
 

egellings

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 6, 2020
Messages
4,059
Likes
3,301
OK, got it. I have only been into a high end audio store once since 1985. That was the excellent ”University Audio” in Madison Wisconsin. I think they played both classical and instrumental jazz. I mainly remember the great sounding speakers in their showroom. I can see Diana Krall used for demo as her voice is complementary to good equipment without challenging it much. Thanks! I was not concerned that Diana was being “disrespected” but interesting to have a context.
She is an excellent singer.
 

MattHooper

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
7,291
Likes
12,201
Well, you don't want to be using what you know to be unbalanced tracks to check your systems.
That depends, I think. If you listen to music of varying recording quality it can make sense to see how your favourite music sounds on a potential speaker.

I have some tracks I use that have some dodgy sound elements - for instance an album that is generally well recorded except some exaggeration and bit of coarseness on the female vocals. I like to hear how a speaker handles that kind of thing as it can get unpleasant on certain speakers. Ideally I want a speaker that shows me that characteristic in the recording, but which still allows the tracks to be enjoyable.
 

shuppatsu

Active Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2023
Messages
135
Likes
185
assuming Diana Krall falls often into that vein … it probably contains less challenging bass sections (or none).
You’d be surprised. Love Scenes features Christian McBride on bass, and he plays very prominently (and very well!). Ironically the first track is one of the few tracks where I have to tone down my standard bass shelf on my headphones EQ because I like to play it loud and it is so bass-dominant that I can turn it up a lot. So much that the extra EQ’d subbass distortion is too much for my headphones.

I (think) I get the arguments for my spectrally dense music is better for speaker evaluation, but I still think a small jazz combo is helpful. Acoustic instruments have an identifiable timbre. Recording standards are generally very high. And the acoustic bass is a tremendous and difficult to reproduce instrument.
 

shuppatsu

Active Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2023
Messages
135
Likes
185
I don’t really inderstand the hostility to OP’s post, but as he’d be the first to admit, there are many kinds of people in the world.

The proposed categories don’t seem to me to be archetypal, and it seems that hardly anyone in the thread strongly identifies with any of the categories. So perhaps more successful as a conversation starter than a valid taxonomy.

At any rate, I’m a “dirtbag” audiophile who is happiest getting 90% performance for 20% cost.

I define “audiophile” as someone who cares about the sound quality and the equipment needed to produce it. For me there is no requirement for “high fidelity.” While my taste generally leans toward accurate reproduction, accurate reproduction is not an end in itself for me.

Epistemologically I am an objectivist. For my own enjoyment I am a subjectivist, but my subjective preferences only have value to me. Also, I don’t have the opportunity to try out much gear. So objectivism is a lingua Franca both for me to get a general idea of equipment I haven’t heard, and for me to speak intelligibly with other people who (rightly) don’t care about my subjective preferences.

Re: subjectivism, my son is a pretty good classical pianist, so the majority of live music I hear is him practicing. Our piano is fine, though I think he might benefit from something a little faster. The room he plays in has mostly hardwood floors and he is right by a bank of windows. Consequently the tone is very bright. This is my reference sound for piano and even the Steinways and such he occasionally gets to play sounds muted and drab to me. If I had a button that could brighten up piano tone on recordings without changing anything else I would appreciate that very much.
 

egellings

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 6, 2020
Messages
4,059
Likes
3,301
I don’t really inderstand the hostility to OP’s post, but as he’d be the first to admit, there are many kinds of people in the world.

The proposed categories don’t seem to me to be archetypal, and it seems that hardly anyone in the thread strongly identifies with any of the categories. So perhaps more successful as a conversation starter than a valid taxonomy.

At any rate, I’m a “dirtbag” audiophile who is happiest getting 90% performance for 20% cost.

I define “audiophile” as someone who cares about the sound quality and the equipment needed to produce it. For me there is no requirement for “high fidelity.” While my taste generally leans toward accurate reproduction, accurate reproduction is not an end in itself for me.

Epistemologically I am an objectivist. For my own enjoyment I am a subjectivist, but my subjective preferences only have value to me. Also, I don’t have the opportunity to try out much gear. So objectivism is a lingua Franca both for me to get a general idea of equipment I haven’t heard, and for me to speak intelligibly with other people who (rightly) don’t care about my subjective preferences.

Re: subjectivism, my son is a pretty good classical pianist, so the majority of live music I hear is him practicing. Our piano is fine, though I think he might benefit from something a little faster. The room he plays in has mostly hardwood floors and he is right by a bank of windows. Consequently the tone is very bright. This is my reference sound for piano and even the Steinways and such he occasionally gets to play sounds muted and drab to me. If I had a button that could brighten up piano tone on recordings without changing anything else I would appreciate that very much.
We tend to like what we get accustomed to, regardless of content or sound quality.
 
Top Bottom