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a newbie's request about a new system

left.ear

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I've perused this forum for while and learned a great deal. However, there is an overwhelming amount of information about things. So, I'm going to enter this request with the anticipation of much more information than I will know what to do with, but eagerly await it.

This is my question(s).

I want a decently sounding system for my home with a modest budget. From the research I've done, I have made the following preliminary decisions. I am in no way married to these decisions, but I want to learn and understand if I should sway from these.

Here we go (based on the research I've done, mostly trusting in this forum vs. the "advice" I found on youtube and elsewhere that I find hard to trust after learning a bit about this hifi world. I've been out of it for a while.

I have a living room that's 18' x 26'. About 8'of that is dining room and I'll be sitting in front of that. I'll be sitting about 13' in front of the TV/speakers. That portion of the room slopes from 8.5' to about 13' at it's highest and the portion behind me is at 8' high and opens into the kitchen (about 8' wide opening).

My question is this. I will be listening about 80% to music. Most of that is background music, but I would like to engage with music on occasion with some volume. I have a cheapy Polk soundbar which is sufficient for in my taste for movies, so I'm not after surround sound as a prominent desire.

1. Will bookshelf speakers be sufficient? I just purchased some Elac debut 2.0 db62s. Great price...to test in my space.
2. I have waffled over a Yamaha S801, but ultimately decided I should purchase the R-N800a due to it's features, price and the dead sexy look. I understan I won't need additional components to enjoy this system with mostly streaming, but CD and perhaps a record player in the future.
3. I ultimately would like the Elac reference DBR62s and also the Revel M16's which are on sale at the moment. But if I need floorstanders for my space I will look elsewhere.
4. Am I completely off base here and running up a tree that will bear no fruit?

Thanks for any input and recommendations to further my confusion and enjoyment in researching this dilemma.

I can upload a sketch of my room if that will help.

Cheers!
 
Hi.
From what I can advise, start with amps and speakers.
Before making adjustments to the system, take some time and study it.
You will find a lot of information on ASR. Study how to position the speakers, how to find a "happy" listening position and try to get the best out of what you have.
Try to understand how to improve the listening room.
Changing components does not necessarily automatically mean improving, in fact, often what you have is already fine.
But it is a question of fine-tuning. The room, the speakers and the interaction between the two elements are the critical part, but once understood it will be what will make the real difference.
Help yourself with digital tools, REW for example, look for tutorials on ASR, and if you want use EQ that you can load from the source if digital.
Once you have familiarized yourself with the system, its potential and the listening room, you can safely try other solutions.
Don't go crazy replacing devices, cables, and more. Always remember that it's a hobby: no frustration, there's always an explanation, but lots of fun, lots of music and if you like it, a lot of desire to know a fascinating world!
 
Welcome.

I’m wondering if the Wiim Amp Pro could be the ideal starting point allowing more budget to go on floorstanding speakers that would give you increased sensitivity and bass output to better match the lower power output of the Wiim compared to the R-N800a.

The Wiim has even more features than the Yamaha, including HDMI audio input that would allow you to control its volume using the TV’s remote control. Auto input switching is a great feature too allowing seamless source switching and no looking for controllers hidden down the sofa. It also has an excellent EQ and subwoofer management feature and all the streaming services built in that you could need.

I think for your listening distance and room volume you would want a floorstanding speaker with around 89-90dB/2.83v/1m and a 4ohm impedance to take advantage of the 120W power output of the Wiim.

If you haven’t already checked out the Spinorama website, this is a great place to shortlist some speakers.
 
1 yes with sub/subs crossed in 70~120 Hz range the 6.5" woofer bookshelfs will be sufficient even up to far field (4 m) distance in medium room to achieve 85/88 dB mono/stereo white noise programme SPL calibration.
2 think again, R-N800A ain't that cheap for what it brings and you could probably do better even with Yamaha for the budget if you persist different paths of separate DAC DSP for about the same or little more money. A-S501 will be on about the same level regarding power amplifier stage. If you could find A-S700 as new or newer used for about same money as A-S501 that would be best buy regarding Yamaha. What you save you put towards something like MiniDSP Flex + UMIK 1.
3 that's fine in both cases.
4 not far off and who knows what are you running at or for.
For pleasant use on lower SPL key is psy equal loudness compensation and all do Yamaha has it and it's not bad implementation per se it's proper integration on sub's is a bit hard (needs very good and high crossover in 2.2 setup) and better to be done on more capable DSP.
Not certain but I think YPAO with automatic equl loudness start's with R-N 1000A. Anyway YPAO ain't great. Unfortunately MiniDSP's don't have any implementation of it but you add self low filler on 105 Hz Q 0.71 on input L & R PEQ bank's and regulate it by hand or just make couple pressets for different SPL and change them.
No wimp's or anything at least 100W @ 8 ohms amp that can hold the output in highs with Elac DBR62's.
 
As the owner of a Yamaha R N602, just be aware that Yamaha Musiccast doesn't support gapless playback, and I've found Musiccast to be a bit temperamental over the years. This is when using Deezer btw. All non streaming stuff works flawlessly, and the build quailty on the Yamaha's is top notch.


The gapless issue may have changed with later models, and/or different streaming services, but if gapless is important to you, it's something you may want to check out before buying.

I love the amp though, so I just picked up a Wiim pro secondhand, connected via coaxial and ethernet and I couldn't be happier! Prefect gapless and a brilliant UI.
 
As the owner of a Yamaha R N602, just be aware that Yamaha Musiccast doesn't support gapless playback, and I've found Musiccast to be a bit temperamental over the years. This is when using Deezer btw. All non streaming stuff works flawlessly, and the build quailty on the Yamaha's is top notch.


The gapless issue may have changed with later models, and/or different streaming services, but if gapless is important to you, it's something you may want to check out before buying.

I love the amp though, so I just picked up a Wiim pro secondhand, connected via coaxial and ethernet and I couldn't be happier! Prefect gapless and a brilliant UI.
It's old (embedded class) SoM for the streamer in Yamaha that doesn't have large enough buffer to do gapless. Regarding UI for better and worse they are very close including Sonos. Using wired net helps anyway especially for local streaming. Even WiiM mini trough Toslink and to more potent DSP and DAC is transparent.
 
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Wimp = Wiim Amp?
Yup (as sleng in this case) or if you wish a Winamp opening intro. So what ever makes you happy. I don't dislike the company but I do the hype about their more recent products and high hopes regarding software DSP software which failed to meet deadlines and all together not progressing into the right direction if you ask me.
 
Yup (as sleng in this case) or if you wish a Winamp opening intro. So what ever makes you happy. I don't dislike the company but I do the hype about their more recent products and high hopes regarding software DSP software which failed to meet deadlines and all together not progressing into the right direction if you ask me.
Fair enough.
I take the other view, that essentially being a beta tester is a price worth paying for the features and continuous improvement. Plus exceptional value.
 
Fair enough.
I take the other view, that essentially being a beta tester is a price worth paying for the features and continuous improvement. Plus exceptional value.
Not fair enough... I whose tester and participant trough V4A development and did costume convolutions for it so I know very good how much is possible even with very low hardware capabilities and UI limitations on your disposal (and right development). Whose very community vocal of enabling class H operational state for amplifier on SoC's with QAudio higher tier codec back in the time and so on. It doesn't pay of when they don't want to listen. Expectational value is Mini and when it isn't or support stops or it broke you tos it to bin and buy what ever comes then. Simple, solo and inexpensive without high hopes and you get what you wanted regarding streamer.
 
Hi, as I read this - you already have the Elac Debuts, did you get an Amp too (the RN800a)?

If you already have a system, how does it sound to you - what's good and what (if anything) is lacking?

If you haven't bought an Amp yet then you should consider that your budget should be biased towards speakers. A cheaper Amp with better speakers will get you a better sound. That Yamaha takes a lot of your budget (too much?).

I don't see why floorstanders are essential - you already have the Elacs so you can see for yourself.

I'd also be thinking about the WiiM Amp Pro, or a WiiM Pro Plus and a separate amp.
 
Not fair enough... I whose tester and participant trough V4A development and did costume convolutions for it so I know very good how much is possible even with very low hardware capabilities and UI limitations on your disposal (and right development). Whose very community vocal of enabling class H operational state for amplifier on SoC's with QAudio higher tier codec back in the time and so on. It doesn't pay of when they don't want to listen. Expectational value is Mini and when it isn't or support stops or it broke you tos it to bin and buy what ever comes then. Simple, solo and inexpensive without high hopes and you get what you wanted regarding streamer.
By ‘fair enough’ I mean, I appreciate you have your opinion and that your reasons make sense for you.

It is fine to recommend more complicated solutions than something like a Wiim Amp, but not everyone wants the complexity, or has the knowledge and skill to implement such systems.

Wiim Amp Pro or Wiim Ultra + power amp with 12V trigger are, in my opinion, the absolute ideal products for a “first hifi system”. They integrate a TV and virtually any other audio source and bring a good “beginner” level of DSP for EQ and subwoofer integration if the user wants to try expanding their knowledge and experience.

I stand by my recommendations. :)
 
Thank you all for the information. I probably wasn't clear enough.

Yes, I already have the debut 2.0s. I got a clean pair for slightly over a $100 and I figured that was a good enough pair to test in my space, considering I really like the DBR62s (or Revels if still on sale once I determine if they're "large" enough for my room).

I do not have an amplifier yet. I have sort of settled on the r-n800a, but haven't purchased it yet in case I should look at spending more on speakers (floorstanders perhaps) in lieu of the DBR62s. So I kind of have a clean slate here. I also have no reference point of what works in my space, so I'm trying to get as much correct as possible with the understanding that I may have to change things in the future. I'd be super happy if my research leads me to a system that works well on the first attempt...but then where's the fun in growing, right?

Ok, now to the questions.

Thanks Zolall. No frustration, this is fun for sure. And REW, oh my gosh...I have another thing to geek out on. I didn't know about this. I'll certainly use this once I have a system in place to measure. I guess I'm flying blind at the moment because I have to set something up first in order to determine how to change it, if necessary. The R-n800a has YPAO. Are there better measurements on the r-n1000a? As I understand, it has the HDMI which would allow remote control of the TV, as well as some upgraded parts, but other than that I don't see much difference to justify the jump in price, although refurbished gets the 1000 close to the 800. Is the music cast app capable of adjusting everything, or are there limitations? Sorry for the newbie lack of understanding here. I did look at the S701/s801 with separate components, but thought the network abilities of the N series would simplify things. I do like to tinker though. I would have owned the S701 when it went on sale for $479 at Adorama, but I missed it. Oh well.

Matt, the Wiim amp Pro? I'm not opposed to going this route. Considering this, what is Wiim vs. Yamaha features? The Wiim amp Pro is 60watts into 8 Ohms. The R-n800a is 100watts into 8 ohms. If I can afford the r-n800a then the power output seems good...and I like the look. But Matt, you said the Wiim has source switching. I'm not sure what you mean. The Wiim controller will control the TV, etc? That's enticing because I DO look for controllers in the couch cushions...I have kids. :) But as far as EQ and bass management goes, does the Music cast app include that as well? Is it sufficient, or rubbish? And you hit on a question of mine...would I be better served with floorstanders to begin with? I have the debut 2.0s which I intended for testing in case I determine I would do better with floorstanders. So that option is definitely on the table. And I did find the spinorama website. I've looked into that and it's been a part of my potential purchases. I just with I could find a pair of the Infinity R263s to test. Ha!

Subob. So I just looked up gapless playback and I didn't even know this was thing. If I do go the Yamaha route, can I run a Wiim (in the future) through it for any advantages it may offer. Or any other DAC for that matter? Is it the DAC that controls gapless playback? And if so, is the Yamaha line capable of this now? I guess I have some more research to do.

Jeremy, yes I have the debut 2.0s, but no amplifier yet. I think I'm starting to see some options here. I like the r-n800a, but am not opposed to going the Wiim route. It seems to be a viable solution. I think my direction is what will allow the most flexibility down the line for speakers. I think I would like the reference DBR62s, but if a floorstander option will "fill the room" better then I'd like to have an amplifier now that will allow that in the future. What I'm gathering is that the floorstanders may in fact be less of a load than the bookshelf options, though I like the size of the bookshelf speakers better. Yamaha R-n800a/1000a vs. the Wiim amp pro/plus with an s701/s801 seems to be the question at this point. My budget isn't set, but I'd like to responsible with it.

So, I'm here at the moment.

Yamaha R-n800a is sufficient, but the alternative is a separate amplifier with the Wiim Amp pro or ultra for implementation of EQ and bass management (both of which I find important). Is the musiccast capable of EQ and bass management? Also, is the yamaha line capable of gapless play at this time?

Wow, for my rudimentary dilemma, as fun as it is, seems to involve a lot more questions than answers. I'm enjoying this, but hope to have something to listen to before I research my way out of my budget. Lol.

Thanks again all of you. I appreciate your willingness to help out the new guy.
 
Matt, the Wiim amp Pro? I'm not opposed to going this route. Considering this, what is Wiim vs. Yamaha features? The Wiim amp Pro is 60watts into 8 Ohms. The R-n800a is 100watts into 8 ohms. If I can afford the r-n800a then the power output seems good...and I like the look. But Matt, you said the Wiim has source switching. I'm not sure what you mean. The Wiim controller will control the TV, etc? That's enticing because I DO look for controllers in the couch cushions...I have kids. :) But as far as EQ and bass management goes, does the Music cast app include that as well? Is it sufficient, or rubbish? And you hit on a question of mine...would I be better served with floorstanders to begin with? I have the debut 2.0s which I intended for testing in case I determine I would do better with floorstanders. So that option is definitely on the table. And I did find the spinorama website. I've looked into that and it's been a part of my potential purchases. I just with I could find a pair of the Infinity R263s to test. Ha!
You’ll have to look into the Yamaha specs to see how they compare to Wiim’s. I’m only familiar with Wiim, sorry.

As a daily user of a Wiim Amp (driving Revel M16) it works brilliantly for the whole family. The HDMI input means that our TV remote turns the Wiim on automatically and controls its volume. Then, say for example someone wants to stream some music, they simply need to play it from their app or the Wiim app (in our case Amazon Music) and the Wiim automatically switches input from HDMI to network. If the Wiim is in standby, it will sense audio on any input and turn on. The Wiim app or physical remote can’t control your TV I’m afraid. Apologies for the confusion there.

I have to admit that it could do with a bit more power if I really want to rock out (wife and kids out of the house scenario!), but for normal use at 3.5m listening distance it’s fine.

That’s why I was suggesting a floor stander so that you gain around 3dB in SPL compared to a stand mounter. You would also drive the room far better at low frequencies so the effective SPL increase over a stand mounter could be more than 3dB in the bass.

As you already have the Elacs, the other option is to get a Wiim Amp Pro (forget the original Wiim amp as it has an inferior amplifier that is not load independent like the Pro version is) and a subwoofer. The subwoofer management in the Wiim would take the strain of its own amplifier as the sub would do the heavy lifting.

The Wiim amp Pro is so cost effective that if you buy one and want more power, you can re-purpose it to another room in the house and then get a Wiim Ultra (+ power amp) for the main room and you then have the start of a nice multiroom system with the ability to link zones, etc. A possible scenario is that the second system uses the Wiim Amp Pro and the Elacs and you upgrade the main room to floorstanders.

Sometimes I think it’s easy to overthink these things! Good luck and keep us updated on your choices.
 
You’ll have to look into the Yamaha specs to see how they compare to Wiim’s. I’m only familiar with Wiim, sorry.

As a daily user of a Wiim Amp (driving Revel M16) it works brilliantly for the whole family. The HDMI input means that our TV remote turns the Wiim on automatically and controls its volume. Then, say for example someone wants to stream some music, they simply need to play it from their app or the Wiim app (in our case Amazon Music) and the Wiim automatically switches input from HDMI to network. If the Wiim is in standby, it will sense audio on any input and turn on. The Wiim app or physical remote can’t control your TV I’m afraid. Apologies for the confusion there.

I have to admit that it could do with a bit more power if I really want to rock out (wife and kids out of the house scenario!), but for normal use at 3.5m listening distance it’s fine.

That’s why I was suggesting a floor stander so that you gain around 3dB in SPL compared to a stand mounter. You would also drive the room far better at low frequencies so the effective SPL increase over a stand mounter could be more than 3dB in the bass.

As you already have the Elacs, the other option is to get a Wiim Amp Pro (forget the original Wiim amp as it has an inferior amplifier that is not load independent like the Pro version is) and a subwoofer. The subwoofer management in the Wiim would take the strain of its own amplifier as the sub would do the heavy lifting.

The Wiim amp Pro is so cost effective that if you buy one and want more power, you can re-purpose it to another room in the house and then get a Wiim Ultra (+ power amp) for the main room and you then have the start of a nice multiroom system with the ability to link zones, etc. A possible scenario is that the second system uses the Wiim Amp Pro and the Elacs and you upgrade the main room to floorstanders.

Sometimes I think it’s easy to overthink these things! Good luck and keep us updated on your choices.
Thanks Matt. Good circumstantial explanation. Your house sounds like mine. :)
I'm off to research the Wiim option now. Man, I wish it was a sexy as the Yamaha. If I had my way, I'd have a BDI TV stand (at $4000) and hide it all in there. But, I've already got an IKEA thing, so maybe aesthetics shouldn't be at the top of my list for now. Ha. Thanks again.
 
He hehehe I played with DSP processing for more than 20 years and even some programming.
Streamer is CPU controller and network card. Old R-N used old microcontroller (M class ARM and old M2 as much as I remember) and old network module which well just worked and I don't believe they are in the hurry to change it. Get 2x 10" sub's and put DBR62's a top of them, that will fill the room in a good way.
With R-N1000A and up Yamaha began using a digital DSP circuit from some more recent AVR which are still old and your heir goes up if you try to dig into it deeper. YPAO whosent great but they might have improve at least it's negative impact on performance. Usually such are still based on old slow microcontrollers and DSP and use fixed spot and limit in number filters and Q simple convolution alike internal EPROM alike storage for microphone calibration and room correction. Yamaha to quote them does self filters for sub/mains. Most of things are usually available trough Music Cast but not all or on all models. Most models will have and web interface for settings.
Anyway streamer is a simple thing and all do Yamaha will again have long support consumer product record simply such things change too fast while quality amplifier will last you 15~20 year's. That's why WiiM mini is/whose so great. Plug it in with Toslink to DAC or DSP and off you go. When it stops working you won't get upset for the price and time it served you. That whose a good price and catch for A-S 701, sorry you missed it. Thing is old mechanical switcher motor ones also had Yamahas property I/O analog unbalanced stages with considerably better SNR (106~110 dB depending on EMI rejection internally in the case from analog radio). More fun for me too but now hard to find as new or not used like new even for later discontinued A-S700 to earlier one R-S700 (one with analog turner).
If you can aim at stand alone DSP multichannel DAC and geak a lot. Microphone is a must. If you can get UMIK 1 for it's friendly use with REW with calibration (cal file to serial number in two mic vertical evaluation setups) and not so much for increase in precision but for SPL meter calibration (as tool in REW). If you can't pretty much any for "professional" use XLR no preamp on it or from similar application or systems (USB or XLR but not 3.5 mm one's from AVR's and such) will work fine for what you might want to hit with PEQ ever even without calibration but then you need a decent SPL (A) external meter to measure it and enter it manually in REW (for SPL calibration purpose). DBR62's are hard to drive and Yamaha is both conservative regarding output and let's them lose a bit more over it so it's more than twice then WiiM at 1 KHz but keeping up much better in highs both regarding power output and everything else (accounting in for 3 to 7 dB).
Old (new) Yamaha will last you 15~20 years, WiiM and Mini DSP 7~10 year's.
 
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Hi, I got a room compareable with yours in size and ceiling. Good news is that such a ceiling reduces modes quite well.
I use MTM 5" speaker and two 10" subs, which gives a nice sound for music and TV/ HT.
Then I had a look at the Yamaha you are considering. To say the truth, I don't understand why a once great HIFI brand produces such aged gear, that no one who is up to date, would buy. I'm with you, the look is very nice, maybe Yamaha puts design over function. Not having a HDMI input is just a no go and price is very, very premium. You could get a very good Denon AVR for the money with the large Audessey room correction and Atmos. Which makes the Yamahas price ridiculous. Another option, go the WiiM way, which has quality sound, function and a consumer friendly price. Spend the saved money on a sub for your quite functional Elac speaker.
 
There are many things to consider in hi-fi, and there is more than just choosing the best measuring gear.

Speakers matter - that's where to put your thinking and your money. However, you have a pair of decent Elacs already - live with them, learn to position them and perhaps even make your own measurements (umic microphone and REW)

Electronics (streamer, DAC and amps) are largely a solved problem. Stick with decent manufacturers and you won't have a problem. More than that, you won't hear any improvement with 'better' gear because the improvement is in technical excellence and is below our audible thresholds.
Power and room correction/DSP excepted.

So ... if you like the look of the Yamaha so much, you can cheerfully just get it!
Other amps will measure better but will not sound better!

A slight tweak would be the A-S701 with a WiiM Pro Plus (even a WiiM mini)

Take advice here, but remember that this is your system and your room!

Enjoy the music :)
 
It does appear that the r-n series yamahas support gapless playback. Check!
Is that something that's changed with the later models?, as it definitely doesn't on the rn602 using Deezer.

Assuming gapless is important to you (you'll notice especially on a lot of live albums, and Classical albums for instance). If you have gapless on the Yamaha network amp you buy, then you won't be needing a Wiim as well.

If you go down a Yamaha amp route that isn't a network amp, then a secondhand Wiim pro is the value route to add streaming. Connect via coaxial to use the DAC in the Yamaha. The Wiim does the gapless bit for you.

If you have exceptional wifi signal, then the Wiim mini via coaxial is even better value, but ethernet is really always the best option for streaming if you can.
 
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