A new Kef speaker? The Kef LS Luxe

[Grimoire]

Sure, "just automate it" but with what microphones, etc? Correcting modes from where the speaker sits doesn't necessarily help the MLP, etc.

The mic in the remote as a basic solution and the phone app with USB mic for better. Just like WiiM.

 

[Karmacoma]

I think questions on the product side might be:

1. If we include room correction, do we have to ship a mic with the speaker? If so, what kind of mic? How does it communicate with the speaker? Etc.
2. If we don't ship a mic, is a smartphone mic good enough for a $4000 product? (WiiM makes do with smartphone mics or built-in mics, but those are closer to $100)
3. If we use a smartphone mic, which models can we support?
4. Do we need to test those models ourselves?
5. etc.

A mode with no measurement support where you just plug in EQ values or import a .txt might be OK for us power-users who bought our UMIK-1s years ago.

But shipping this feature to the general public may demand a more careful approach.

They're looking at it (probably) through the lens of: Value of feature = Increased sales - Increase in returns.

If 1% of people know how to use PEQ correctly and a different 1% tries it and screws up their sound and returns the product, it's a loser and the 1% of PEQ-enjoyers does not justify the investment. KEF needs to believe that they are losing sales from not having PEQ materially more often than they would get returns from wrong settings in PEQ.

The other point of view (from the marketing side) is that PEQ is becoming a "table-stakes" feature and not having it will tend to start generating "cons" or negative comments in reviews. This will tend to hurt sales in a very un-quantifiable way. But when (say) SVS are putting PEQ in their app, you can't really say it's a niche, unheard-of feature. And SVS hasn't deleted that feature from their app due to overwhelming user problems.

Does the average person know what a phase knob does on the back of a sub? Not really. Do KEF put them on the backs of their subs? Yep. Can the wrong settings wreck your sound? Also yep.

I think the support / return risk is probably overestimated, the marketing risk is increasing, and KEF just needs to add it and ask their UI designer to not make it look too appealing to the novices.

Indeed, so far what we've seen are mics placed in streamers, loudspeakers, or smartphones.
That's not really adequate for the premium room correction premium speakers should get.
Good thing with a wiim is you can use a mic with your app, and you can import its calibration file. Cheapest way to do it.
If Kef were to make it, it would probably be more expensive than what you get now with a Wiim

 

[terryforsythe]

1. If we include room correction, do we have to ship a mic with the speaker? If so, what kind of mic? How does it communicate with the speaker? Etc.

That probably would be a good solution. My Yamaha AVR receiver came with one, and that was over a decade ago. At that time the receiver was somewhere around $600 or $700 if I remember correctly.

Another option is to use a mobile phone, but I have heard that their accuracy varies from model to model. How much impact that has on room correction frequencies I don't know. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of that can chime in.

 

[Gwen 22]

I think questions on the product side might be:

1. If we include room correction, do we have to ship a mic with the speaker? If so, what kind of mic? How does it communicate with the speaker? Etc.
2. If we don't ship a mic, is a smartphone mic good enough for a $4000 product? (WiiM makes do with smartphone mics or built-in mics, but those are closer to $100)
3. If we use a smartphone mic, which models can we support?
4. Do we need to test those models ourselves?
5. etc.

A mode with no measurement support where you just plug in EQ values or import a .txt might be OK for us power-users who bought our UMIK-1s years ago.

But shipping this feature to the general public may demand a more careful approach.

They're looking at it (probably) through the lens of: Value of feature = Increased sales - Increase in returns.

If 1% of people know how to use PEQ correctly and a different 1% tries it and screws up their sound and returns the product, it's a loser and the 1% of PEQ-enjoyers does not justify the investment. KEF needs to believe that they are losing sales from not having PEQ materially more often than they would get returns from wrong settings in PEQ.

The other point of view (from the marketing side) is that PEQ is becoming a "table-stakes" feature and not having it will tend to start generating "cons" or negative comments in reviews. This will tend to hurt sales in a very un-quantifiable way. But when (say) SVS are putting PEQ in their app, you can't really say it's a niche, unheard-of feature. And SVS hasn't deleted that feature from their app due to overwhelming user problems.

Does the average person know what a phase knob does on the back of a sub? Not really. Do KEF put them on the backs of their subs? Yep. Can the wrong settings wreck your sound? Also yep.

I think the support / return risk is probably overestimated, the marketing risk is increasing, and KEF just needs to add it and ask their UI designer to not make it look too appealing to the novices.

I pretty much agree, but I'd add—from a business perspective—that people who know their stuff (I consider myself to have at least a basic understanding, but I'm by no means an expert) are also often the ones giving advice, both on audio forums and in real life.
People around me often ask me for advice on buying audio or video equipment, and they follow it.
I've personally recommended the KEF LSX or LS50W2, for example, but until there's a PEQ or automatic correction, I'll be careful not to recommend the LS Luxe to anyone.

 

[Gwen 22]

Sure, "just automate it" but with what microphones, etc? Correcting modes from where the speaker sits doesn't necessarily help the MLP, etc. My point is that it's not a very complex feature compared to firing up REW and stuff, but getting it working right from a layperson's point of view is not as simple as flipping a switch for KEF.

Why not just sell the calibration microphone separately, like Dynaudio does with its Focus speakers?

 

[kemmler3D]

Why not just sell the calibration microphone separately, like Dynaudio does with its Focus speakers?

Doable but will cause some complaints.

I pretty much agree, but I'd add—from a business perspective—that people who know their stuff (I consider myself to have at least a basic understanding, but I'm by no means an expert) are also often the ones giving advice, both on audio forums and in real life.
People around me often ask me for advice on buying audio or video equipment, and they follow it.
I've personally recommended the KEF LSX or LS50W2, for example, but until there's a PEQ or automatic correction, I'll be careful not to recommend the LS Luxe to anyone.

This is very true. My own research on buying habits a while back indicated that recommendations from a friend or relative often drove purchase decisions, IIRC it was more than reviews. From that POV sometimes you need to include quality signals that those people care about that their less-geeky friends don't appreciate.

Anecdotally this fits my experience... among people I know personally, none of them knew about WiiM (for instance) before I mentioned it...

 

[MarkS]

Here is the New York Times Wirecutter (tech review for normies) on AV receivers. Note the bullet point on room correction.

https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-receiver/

If I were KEF, I'd sell room correction as a thousand-dollar upgrade. Have a mic input and software built-in, but sell a mic (and access to the software) separately. The software should work like Lyngdorf's Room Perfect, which does not require reading any graphs or doing anything other than moving the mic around the room. Retailers could also sell in-home calibration as an extra-cost service.

You're welcome, KEF. My consultancy bill is in the mail

 

[HooStat]

FWIW, Genelec charges $495 for their GLM kit. I think if KEF charged $199 it would be great. (If KEF actually had room correction I wouldn't be about to get Genelec speakers.)

 

[thewas]

Sure, "just automate it" but with what microphones, etc? Correcting modes from where the speaker sits doesn't necessarily help the MLP, etc. My point is that it's not a very complex feature compared to firing up REW and stuff, but getting it working right from a layperson's point of view is not as simple as flipping a switch for KEF.

And most automatic correctios are quite suboptimal, I have myself a WiiM and in the end nothing beats a manual correction from someone with experience in that field.

 

[EXIF68]

View attachment 549063

This is a hell of a real LOUDspeaker.

 

[Sister_Ray]

I guess it was in the cards that the price point would become rather absurd. At €3999 it is almost double the current price of the LS50WII (€2149, though I already see discounted offers dipping below €2K) and a mere €1500 below the LS60W (€5499; bass, anyone?).
Regardless if the performance is stellar, it'll be easy to find a better price/performance option. So this probably qualifies as a lifestyle product for people who care more (or at least as much) about sleek looks than/as audio performance. Or just audiophiles that have to deal with the Wife Acceptance Factor.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Would be interesting to compare with KH150

 

[Vacceo]

All those sites do are advertorials, reviews only exist in very few places

I miss some further development in terms of Dirac compatibility and capacity to expand the system into multichannel.

For the room correction part, it has been covered in the thread already.

For the multichannel option, it could work connecting several speakers to a hub via RJ45 (as both speakers can be paired) and that hub, to the main speaker which would work as the one to decode Atmos/DTS/your format of choice. Add as many slave speakers as channels you'd like and you have a home theatre without the AVR.

For the ultimate design set, I'd say KEF could produce, in cooperation with any manufacturer, a series of CD transport, phono stage and other sources that could be operated with the speakers's app.

 

[thewas]

At €3999 it is almost double the current price of the LS50WII (€2149, though I already see discounted offers dipping below €2K)

Current list price of the LS50WII is 2499€, I don't think it is fair to compare new list with discounted prices after some time, am positive the Luxe will also get similar percentual discounts like the others after some time which will make it a more attractive choice for some.

 

[Gwen 22]

Would be interesting to compare with KH150

I'm really looking forward to this comparison!
My intuition (I'm no expert) is that it won't be possible to match the KH 150's performance below 80/70 Hz, because the Neumann delivers exceptional performance in that range thanks to a woofer with very long excursion—a characteristic that is not very compatible with a coincident speaker.
Personally, performance levels just above 80 Hz would be enough for me, since if I ever buy these LS Luxe speakers (in other words, if they ever implement a PEQ and subwoofer delay correction), it will be to set up a 2.1 system.

 

[Gwen 22]

Current list price of the LS50WII is 2499€, I don't think it is fair to compare new list with discounted prices after some time, am positive the Luxe will also get similar percentual discounts like the others after some time which will make it a more attractive choice for some.

You're not wrong, but the $/€ discussion still bothers me a little. The price of the dedicated stands does too.

 

[MNMLSM]

I was always fascinated by KEF and their unique design.

So I decided to get the LS50 Meta, tried the wireless and wired version. Additionally I bought the KC62.

With my current experiences I wouldn't buy an active pair of the LUXE, my personal journey:

- KEF support was the worst experience that I ever made with a premium brand.
My sub (KC62) has a noticeable rattling sound, caused by certain lower frequencies.
First contact was perfect and they assured that I could return the sub. Well, a few days later they changed their mind and told me that I have to contact the shop where I bought the product.
After a long back and forth and ignoring I gave up and contacted the shop. They sent me a brand new KC62 which had the same problem, so I contacted them again and they didn't help me out once again. After a few weeks I gave up, current status I still have a KC62 with an annoying rattling sound which is just unacceptable for that price.

- I also tested the LS50 Wireless II. Great sounding speakers, I returned them because the software was a nightmare, the app was just not good enough and seemed to be outdated. Also I had to install Google Home which I didn't want to use.

- I read quite a few comments which defend KEF for not providing room correction with the new LUXE. I thinks that's an absolute no-go, especially regarding the price.
WiiM demonstrates perfectly that it's possible and you can great results.
Currently using the LS50 Meta + KC62 + WiiM Amp Ultra and the adjustments via room correction and my simple smartphone mic are amazing! You just have to invest some time.

 

[Sister_Ray]

Current list price of the LS50WII is 2499€, I don't think it is fair to compare new list with discounted prices after some time, am positive the Luxe will also get similar percentual discounts like the others after some time which will make it a more attractive choice for some.

Fair enough, then compare it with that (by the way I see that €2499 was the list price at introduction in 2020, so that hasn't dropped). It's still quite a steep step up to go from 2.5 to 4K (+60%) for a follow-up product (which it essentially still is, although they gave it a new flashy name).

 

[thewas]

Fair enough, then compare it with that (by the way I see that €2499 was the list price at introduction in 2020, so that hasn't dropped). It's still quite a steep step up to go from 2.5 to 4K (+60%) for a follow-up product (which it essentially still is, although they gave it a new flashy name).

I personally see it rather like a step up in size and especially SPL capabilities so no direct follow up, the LS50WII is also still offered in parallel.

 

[Gwen 22]

I personally see it rather like a step up in size and especially SPL capabilities so no direct follow up, the LS50WII is also still offered in parallel.

I completely agree with you!