A new Dac to improve sound quality from Khadas Tone Board 1

[HappyMax]

You are really eating up their marketing crap aren't you. .

Sorry but I prefer other foods.

In any case I was referring to the R2R Dacs to make an example of technological evolution in the design of the Dacs.

"Consequently, technological evolution (I am referring for example to R2R dacs such as Denafrips ARES II or Musician Pegasus or multichannel dacs such as Exasound E68) with important investments in research by the producers of these products is useless and any dac will not improve in any way the quality of the analog sound produced by an audio system compared to the Khadas."

So you think dac companies are just marketing by charging us for unnecessarily expensive devices?

 

[b4nt]

You are really eating up their marketing crap aren't you.

I choosed that Aune because I didn't trust in marketing crap. It was cheap compared to other DACs featuring XLR, with a good dynamic range, so on.

Now i assume you would recommand me to swap my Aune for KTB1. Would have the same dynamics, so on, but with RCA only. Plus a limited output bandwidth? On the KTB specs, I do read: ±0.08 dB @ 10Hz~20KHz.

Speakers/tweeters on my Aune setup go to 30kHz.

I would enjoy some inputs about what DACs really achieve or not above 20kHz...

 

[threni]

"Consequently, technological evolution (I am referring for example to R2R dacs such as Denafrips ARES II or Musician Pegasus or multichannel dacs such as Exasound E68) with important investments in research by the producers of these products is useless and any dac will not improve in any way the quality of the analog sound produced by an audio system compared to the Khadas."

So you think dac companies are just marketing by charging us for unnecessarily expensive devices?

Remove the word "dac" from that last sentence and read it again.

Read the review of the E30 here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-e30-dac-review.12119/

Now, suppose we had access to advanced alien technology in Area 51 which could be used to improve DACs. What aspect of any of the stats mentioned in that review could this new tech improve; what would the nature of the difference be? Would humans be able to hear it?

 

[PierreV]

In any case I was referring to the R2R Dacs to make an example of technological evolution in the design of the Dacs.

 

[FrantzM]

I thank you all for the answers you have given me.

I joined this forum to humbly and politely ask for an opinion from people who know much more than me and to avoid wasting my money and making the right choice

I have well understood that "This forum is science first" so I will not make any further personal consideration or I will always give any personal advice and therefore not proven by surveys with demonstrable data from graphs or measurements on products or software for music reproduction.

So if I understand correctly the considerations that have been made, the sound that a 100 euro Dac like the Khadas can produce has the same audible technical characteristics of a 1000 or 10000 euro one.

It's correct ?

As a matter of fact on this very forum a $9.00 DAC did measure better or same as a $15,000 one ... As for sound , they would sound the same to most people... once level matched and identity of devices concealed.
If you're serious, stay, learn and you will realize that you can have an accurate, enjoyable audio system at a cost that will not shatter your savings or you bank accounts. It's up to you: Go with the ASR flow or go spend a lot of money for sideways moves and poor results ... Your choice.

Peace

 

[Veri]

I choosed that Aune because I didn't trust in marketing crap. It was cheap compared to other DACs featuring XLR, with a good dynamic range, so on.

Now i assume you would recommand me to swap my Aune for KTB1.

What? I wouldn't go and command anyone here to do anything. Ha I myself own pricier stuff than is needed, quite surely. I won't however go and tell people that it makes a major difference or that they should buy it too. If I'd do it over again I'd probably end up with cheaper gear, very likely, yes. Unfortunately many of us have gone through the audiophile rabbit hole, prior to concluding that MOST of the sound lies in your drivers, your headphones/speakers. All the rest doesn't have even remotely as much of an impact.

 

[b4nt]

What? I wouldn't go and command anyone here

I wrote "recommand", not "command", and I'm still waiting for some inputs about what really happens at 20kHz and above

prior to concluding that MOST of the sound lies in your drivers, your headphones/speakers. All the rest doesn't have even remotely as much of an impact.

As much or none? Before changing that Aune, I'll probably move the D50s, to compare. To check if its the DACs or the speakers. Setups sound different where both speakers sets are acceptable.

 

[b4nt]

As for sound , they would sound the same to most people...

I found a track of 2017, with RF noises in the record. Shared it, one replyed to me: "nicely detailed."

Last week, a track was published, I feel there is noise inside also. The same track was earlier on youtube, where current total is 727k views.

 

[FrantzM]

I found a track of 2017, with RF noises in the record. Shared it, one replyed to me: "nicely detailed."

Last week, a track was published, I feel there is noise inside also. The same track was earlier on youtube, where current total is 727k views.

?????

 

[Veri]

I wrote "recommand", not "command", and I'm still waiting for some inputs about what really happens at 20kHz and above

As much or none? Before changing that Aune, I'll probably move the D50s, to compare. To check if its the DACs or the speakers. Setups sound different where both speakers sets are acceptable.

I misread recommend/command, I see IMO there is very little gains but there might be some if your DA is exceptionally bad. It all depends on where you're coming from.. but there's a boatload of competitive converters out nowadays.. as shown on ASR.

About 20kHz above, have you ever did an auditory test? I am 29 y/o, I cannot hear up 20kHz at all. Why care about the range between 20-30kHz ? Most converters will not preserve over nyquist anyway, unless you are listening to hi-res music. Are you? Because if you listen to a youtube track for example, there isn't a chance any 20kHz+ information will be in there after compression. If you think there is any upper treble detail in your Aune set-up this way, it is most certainly placebo. So.. are you using hi-res audio material..? If not, please put it out of your head there is even any chance you are hearing upper range frequencies.. it's not possible.

 

[b4nt]

?????

Go to Qobuz, search for Cinema, by the Marias, avalaible since last week. Listen to Hush track, I get a pop inside at approx second 47, then others later.

Being attentive, it is audible on Youtube:

The track with RF noise inside (4G harmonics poping in) is on Bandcamp and on Qobuz: Arpo, by Call Super.

That is Hi-Res and CD quality

 

[Koeitje]

The biggest compliment for an R2R DAC is that you hear no difference between it and a competently designed DAC based on an IC. Because most R2R DACs will have issues within hearing range.

 

[solderdude]

Yes I refer under the same conditions; so if I change the Khadas in my system with the Musician Pegasus I obtain the same sound from the same song.

Not when you are playing redbook in not filtered NOS mode.
When you make sure the filtering is similar and the output is level matched and you are not told which one is playing then the answer is you won't be able to tell which one is the Khadas or the Musician when music is playing at comfortable levels.

 

[b4nt]

If you think there is any upper treble detail in your Aune set-up this way, it is most certainly placebo. So.. are you using hi-res audio material..? If not, please put it out of your head there is even any chance you are hearing upper range frequencies.. it's not possible.

I was also told no one can hear low freqs. I've a sub I often enjoy, for what it adds to rare tracks that go deep to very deep there. Listen to Regular Pleasure, by Patricia Barber. Blaukreuz by Helmut Bismark is also a very good bass track. Your DAC goes to 10Hz, I won't recommand Caged birds, by Elph vs Coil, your neigbours won't appreciate, try with other Coil titles (they are availabe on archive.org).

I think my Atohms (35kHz) and Dynaudios (23kHz) speakers are hi-res capable in audible or perceptible range. Some how, my Dynaudios sound different, they are driven by the D50s, the others by the Aune S16. Or is the Aune just a bit shorter in the 16-20k range?

 

[Veri]

I think my Atohms (35kHz) and Dynaudios (23kHz) speakers are hi-res capable in audible or perceptible range. Some how, my Dynaudios sound different, they are driven by the D50s, the others by the Aune S16. Or is the Aune just a bit shorter in the 16-20k range?

Did you at least read the Nyquist frequency article? You need to understand basic sampling theorem to understand it is simply not possible in your set-up, whether your speakers are even capable or not. Check out this wonderful video if you are intrigued.

 

[b4nt]

Did you at least read the Nyquist frequency article? You need to understand basic sampling theorem to understand it is simply not possible in your set-up, whether your speakers are even capable or not.

You mean DACs cut 96k and DSD tracks at 20kHz?

 

[Veri]

You mean DACs cut 96k and DSD tracks at 20kHz?

If you listen to 44kHz material, nyquist is FS/2 so 22kHz, if sampling theorem is upheld. So you need 88/96kHz hi-res SOURCE material to get your desired 30kHz super high frequency information to your speakers.

I asked if you use hi-res material, you replied your "speakers are hi-res capable". Unless you are feeding it proper hi-res you can't possible get those high frequencies to output on your speakers. Surely not from youtube... You didn't mention any 96k or DSD tracks before in any case..

 

[b4nt]

I asked if you use hi-res material, you replied your "speakers are hi-res capable". Unless you are feeding it proper hi-res you can't possible get those high frequencies to output on your speakers.

But I do have some 48k, 96k and above tracks.... and I'm wondering how DACs really reproduce them.

 

[raistlin65]

We could therefore say that everything that is written on thousands of forums by audiophile enthusiasts who share impressions and advice on the various dac models makes no sense and is a total waste of time and money.

Yep. Most people are oblivious to the extensive effects that cognitive biases have on their decision-making processes. While it doesn't focus on perceptual biases, Nobel prize winner Daniel Kahnemann's Thinking Fast and Slow can be a real eye-opener if you are unfamiliar with how much cognitive biases influence human thinking. Both in the professional world and in everyday life. For instance, that book has even had an effect on new player recruiting in the MLB.

So then once one understands the impact of cognitive biases, the idea that perceptual biases greatly influence what audiophiles hear is no surprise. Expectation bias and improper volume leveling explain what they perceive to be differences, when none actually exist. Science has now shown using fMRI that, not only the cerebral cortex is involved in expectation bias when it comes to sound, but even the auditory processing part of our brain.

 

[PierreV]

But I do have some 48k, 96k and above tracks.... and I'm wondering how DACs really reproduce them.

Yes, but the problem is that often there is nothing, or no musical content, above 22kHz (to be generous) in the source file as Amir has shown in several videos analyzing "Hi-Res" content.