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A new Dac to improve sound quality from Khadas Tone Board 1

Veri

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I'm new to the audio world and already tired of reading people trying to justify their "warm sounding" DACs :rolleyes:.
Was it already the case before Youtube became one of the main sources of information?
Unfortunately, yes. But streamer review dudes didn't exactly improve that aspect. You can say a lot about Zeos, but at least most of the time he says good DACs will not sound "different". Good on him.
 

b4nt

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Didn't check all details for Loxjie D30. Comes with a headset amp, and internal PSU. I never use a headset.

Unbalanced D50s has no headset amp, neither PSU. Would need an external PSU, low noise prefered, additionnal costs. If the sound doesn't suit, one could swap out the op amp (but I believe power amp and speakers make the real difference considering all those little DAC specs).

Both offer bluetooth, "lossy HD", but can be usefull for long term.

I noticed my D50s supports FLAC files specific formats my older DAC doesn't. It would also support MQA (I'll have none of such). Should also support higher rate DSD formats my old DAC doesn't.

For long term, I would so compare the features.
 
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HappyMax

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I thank you all for the answers you have given me.

I joined this forum to humbly and politely ask for an opinion from people who know much more than me and to avoid wasting my money and making the right choice

I have well understood that "This forum is science first" so I will not make any further personal consideration or I will always give any personal advice and therefore not proven by surveys with demonstrable data from graphs or measurements on products or software for music reproduction.

So if I understand correctly the considerations that have been made, the sound that a 100 euro Dac like the Khadas can produce has the same audible technical characteristics of a 1000 or 10000 euro one.

It's correct ?
 
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HappyMax

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Listen to what @solderdude is telling you. 1.2db increase in input from the Loxje may not be enough to sound louder to you. You may feel like the Khadas and the Loxje are the same volume. But that small decibel volume increase will result in the audio sounding better because it is slightly louder.

That being said, if you want to ignore the role that slight differences in volume can make in perceived audio quality, then all you need is an accurate DAC with higher output like the Loxje. Then your tests will make it sound better compared to the Khadas. Not sure which one does that, but someone else can probably tell you.

Great info - Thank you
 

Veri

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So if I understand correctly the considerations that have been made, the sound that a 100 euro Dac like the Khadas can produce has the same audible technical characteristics of a 1000 or 10000 euro one.
Unless there is some factor like bad grounding plane, impedance mismatches or other problems like USB/GPU computer noise, when everything is working correctly then yes, the likely answer is that it will produce the same great sound.. :)
 

b4nt

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Unless there is some factor like bad grounding plane, impedance mismatches or other problems like USB/GPU computer noise, when everything is working correctly then yes, the likely answer is that it will produce the same great sound.. :)

I dont think the Khadas Tone Board comes with chips like XMOS or advanced recloking circuits. Outputs seem basic, and the PSU is inexistant or minimalistic.
 

Veri

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I dont think the Khadas Tone Board comes with chips like XMOS or advanced recloking circuits. Outputs seem basic, and the PSU is inexistant or minimalistic.
It has an XMOS chip :) And it has input PSU filtering. Minimalistic, maybe, but performance is verified good.
 

b4nt

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It has an XMOS chip :) And it has input PSU filtering. Minimalistic, maybe, but performance is verified good.

I see: https://www.khadas.com/tone1

Then a difference might come from the way it is enclosed or bundled (for shielding from other parts). And I wouldn't trust that much
PSU filtering from potentially noisy USB PC port.

On my TV, I've added basic flat rate dac/amp via Toslink, plus small speakers, which made a great difference. I won't need more there.
 
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HappyMax

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Unless there is some factor like bad grounding plane, impedance mismatches or other problems like USB/GPU computer noise, when everything is working correctly then yes, the likely answer is that it will produce the same great sound.. :)

We could therefore say that everything that is written on thousands of forums by audiophile enthusiasts who share impressions and advice on the various dac models makes no sense and is a total waste of time and money.

Consequently, technological evolution (I am referring for example to R2R dacs such as Denafrips ARES II or Musician Pegasus or multichannel dacs such as Exasound E68) with important investments in research by the producers of these products is useless and any dac will not improve in any way the quality of the analog sound produced by an audio system compared to the Khadas.

Quite right ?
 

b4nt

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Consequently, technological evolution (I am referring for example to R2R dacs such as Denafrips ARES II or Musician Pegasus or multichannel dacs such as Exasound E68) with important investments in research by the producers of these products is useless and any dac will not improve in any way the quality of the analog sound produced [by an audio system compared to the Khadas].

Costs have changed over the last 6 to 10 years. In the past, for €100, you got a nice but limited 16 bits 96k DAC, with no special clocking and jitter canceling features.
 

solderdude

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So if I understand correctly the considerations that have been made, the sound that a 100 euro Dac like the Khadas can produce has the same audible technical characteristics of a 1000 or 10000 euro one.

correction: CAN have very similar and audible similar characteristics to a 1000 or 10000 DAC under equal conditions.
They may have different looks, longevity, filters, format support or 'trickery' on board or conditions (in your case) may differ.
 
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HappyMax

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Costs have changed over the last 6 to 10 years. In the past, for €100, you got a nice but limited 16 bits 96k DAC, with no special clocking and jitter canceling features.

You are right but i am referring to the sound produced by the same audio system with one dac or another.

As I said, following the reasoning made so far, Khadas produces an audible analog sound identical to the Musician Pegasus or the Exasound E68.
 

b4nt

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correction: CAN have very similar and audible similar characteristics to a 1000 or 10000 DAC under equal conditions.
They may have different looks, longevity, filters, format support or 'trickery' on board or conditions (in your case) may differ.

You will get close to: https://www.nagraaudio.com/fr/product/nagra-hd-dac/

I didn't check how that all evolved. Some years ago, all where promoting high range DACs with GPS DOs, for high quality (and expensive) recloking features. Looks like nowadays, all DACs feature XMOS or ESS, plus precision clocks.

How do these precision clocks shift over years or with room temperature shifts, so on? Maybe shift compared to advanced turntables electronics?
 
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HappyMax

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correction: CAN have very similar and audible similar characteristics to a 1000 or 10000 DAC under equal conditions.
They may have different looks, longevity, filters, format support or 'trickery' on board or conditions (in your case) may differ.
Yes I refer under the same conditions; so if I change the Khadas in my system with the Musician Pegasus I obtain the same sound from the same song.
 

b4nt

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The difference could reside in "very similar" outputs. On one setup, I've an Aune S16, I was very happy with, still are. But on another, I've now a D50s, and since, I'm thinking about upgrading that Aune...
 

PierreV

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Yes I refer under the same conditions; so if I change the Khadas in my system with the Musician Pegasus I obtain the same sound from the same song.

I own the KTB and also a well-measuring DAC ( and streamer) that costs roughly _100_ times what the KTB did. Level matched, no difference that I can hear. It could be that I have bad ears, but since my bad ears seem to work as expected by science, I don't worry too much about them.

That being said, I use the more expensive DAC all the time, partly because it was available 6-7 years before the KTB but also because it has a bunch of inputs and outputs (both single-ended and balanced), an EQ engine, a web interface, etc...
 

b4nt

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no difference that I can hear.

an EQ engine, a web interface, etc...

I don't need EQ, web interface, things like that. The fact is I percieved both audible and subjective differences with the D50s setup, compared to my Aune S16 setup. The technology of that Aune is now 6-10 years old.
 
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HappyMax

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I own the KTB and also a well-measuring DAC ( and streamer) that costs roughly _100_ times what the KTB did. Level matched, no difference that I can hear. It could be that I have bad ears, but since my bad ears seem to work as expected by science, I don't worry too much about them.

That being said, I use the more expensive DAC all the time, partly because it was available 6-7 years before the KTB but also because it has a bunch of inputs and outputs (both single-ended and balanced), an EQ engine, a web interface, etc...

So don't you think replacing your 6-7 year old dac with the Musician Pegasus which has such a different new R2R technology will improve the analog sound in your sound system (technically they are very different) ?
 

Veri

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different new R2R technology
You are really eating up their marketing crap aren't you. What exactly is 'new' about this technology? Yes, it's a resistor ladder ('multibit') DAC, yes it's different from most other modern DACs. No, it's hardly new technology, and again no there hasn't ever been any proof that this tech sounds 'better' let alone different.

I appreciated this video of reviewer hearing no real audible difference:

" The bravest thing to say in the audiophile community is usually: I heard no difference. "

The stereotypical comeback would be that his gear is not 'revealing enough' and that someone elses' wife in the other room could easily hear those sweet differences....
 
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