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A millennial's rant on classical music

pwjazz

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Is music an intellectual exercise or an emotional one

If I may continue to abuse the food analogy, I think it's more a matter of different kinds of enjoyment. When I eat a BBQ brisket, the fatty meat and the sugary caramelized bits stimulate some of my more primitive pleasure centers that reward me for having found high calorie food. When I eat a delicately seasoned cauliflower soup at my favorite French restaurant, surrounded by pictures of the beautiful Provencal countryside that I once visited, I'm stimulated in a different way. It's not as immediate, and it requires more thought and introspection, but it's also rewarding.

I guess what I'm saying is that some pleasure just requires some work, or at least some sustained mindful attention. I once took a float trip down a portion of the Mississippi, which at the time seemed cool enough but in hindsight feels like an even more moving experience than I appreciated at the time. It wasn't like a Moab whitewater rafting trip with rapids that gets your adrenaline going and stunning scenery that takes your breath away, but the mighty and still somewhat wild Mississippi, with its muddy water and reedy banks, made its own deep impression. Perhaps that's why I so enjoy Smetana's Moldau, an ode to a river which, while devoid of dance-friendly rhythms or catchy hooks, never fails to evoke a sense of traveling down a lovely, at times serene and others wild, river. It's not something I could properly enjoy while driving my car, sorting through my mail or sitting in a bar with some friends, but at the right time and in the right mood it's a far more emotional experience than 99% of what I hear on the radio.
 

ahofer

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Because you say so? Unlikely. :)

Which part of “Classical music with some few exceptions has no syncopation instead” am I revising or ignorant about?

The entirety of it. It is a factually wrong statement. You could pick almost anything out of the late classical-romantic-modern chamber music genre and hear the syncopation screaming at you about how wrong you are.

You could say it usually is temporary and resolves, or that it isn’t typically a permanent feature of the meter (again, except for a variety of dance tempos that are not corner cases). You could say the jazz-eighth feel is not of the classical tradition. But the way you stated it is beyond reductive, it is wrong.

If you want to believe classical music is full of syncopation, that is your prerogative. But you seem to believe anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant. This is exactly what puts off some people about the elitism and snobbery associated with classical music audience (as opposed to music).

Believing and stating factually wrong things is ignorance. As for snobbery-from my perspective it is you who have behaved snobbishly. You made a factually wrong statement that diminished music in the classical tradition, apparently to suit the thesis, such as it was, of your prior post. Ironic, then, that you make accusations of ethnocentrism in trying to justify your oversimplification. You will notice I have cast no aspersions on, or tried to oversimplify or diminish other forms of music. Rather, I’ve just resisted those I’ve seen here.
 

Robin L

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The genre I've never really managed to get into is Jazz, as with any genre it's a bit silly to talk about liking or not liking jazz given the diversity in the form but whereas I find it easy to find and like new orchestral and operatic music I find it difficult to like jazz and I've found really very few that I genuinely like. My former boss was obsessed with jazz (as obsessed as I am with Bruckner or Schubert) and he tried a few times to enthuse me. He used to put jazz on in his office if he had to work late after most people had gone home and if I was also working late I'd listen and sometimes I must admit I enjoyed it but more often than not it did nothing for me. Yet his passion for jazz was undeniable and it clearly did give him a lot of joy.
FWIW, I'm obsessed with Bruckner, Schubert, Charlie Parker and John Coltrane.
 

StevenEleven

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The genre I've never really managed to get into is Jazz, as with any genre it's a bit silly to talk about liking or not liking jazz given the diversity in the form but whereas I find it easy to find and like new orchestral and operatic music I find it difficult to like jazz and I've found really very few that I genuinely like. My former boss was obsessed with jazz (as obsessed as I am with Bruckner or Schubert) and he tried a few times to enthuse me. He used to put jazz on in his office if he had to work late after most people had gone home and if I was also working late I'd listen and sometimes I must admit I enjoyed it but more often than not it did nothing for me. Yet his passion for jazz was undeniable and it clearly did give him a lot of joy.

Hmmmm. . . . Just a shot in the dark for you. . . For $2.73 (or less) how can you lose?

https://www.amazon.com/Bolling-Suit...+suite+jazz+piano+flute&qid=1570907477&sr=8-1

You can read the Amazon reviews if you want to get a feeling for it. . . or if you have Prime you can probably just start listening. . . not really my thing to write much about it. . it has been said that writing about music is like dancing about architecture. :)
 

Robin L

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I don’t need to know your ethnic background because supremacy is not always based on ethnicity nor was any such claim made. It is just that there is no generalized word for ethno-centricity. In the weakest form, it is simple elitism or snobbery. In general, it is rooted in the unwillingness to accept that something one identifies with may have weak points (in addition to strong points) while something else outside it may have stronger points. So, anyone pointing that out must be ignorant and the strong points in other identities are “subsumed” by definition inside what one identifies with.

Hence, your tortuous explanation of ragtime being “classical” or how that flowed into blues. It is a way of diminishing the other by framing it in a subsuming fashion, perhaps subconsciously.

Not everyone who believes that is a supremacist but a population that is insecure that way can be exploited by demagogues. Ethnicity based demagoguery is the easiest one but not the only one.
I just finished Joseph Horowitz' "Classical Music In America". The "Ethno" in this case is German, more of the same historical material can be found in "Understanding Toscanini" by the same author. German immigrants in America started the whole classical music racket in this country, the notion of the Musical supremacy of Beethoven and his ilk. No doubt that there's plenty of supremacist propaganda as regards classical music, but there is also something called history. Ragtime is a unique genre that had a brief burst of popularity. It's got a pretty complicated history that intertwines with what was then "Classical Music". Ragtime is a subset of syncopation. As noted before, broken rhythm is all over all music right from the start, it's pretty universal. Some styles of music have minimum levels of syncopation, some are maximal. Charley Patton's recordings are in the latter category, clearly derived from Ragtime.

Facts are simple and facts are straight
Facts are lazy and facts are late
Facts all come with points of view
Facts don't do what I want them to
Facts just twist the truth around
Facts are living turned inside out
Facts are getting the best of them
Facts are nothing on the face of things
Facts don't stain the furniture
Facts go out and slam the door
Facts are written all over your face
Facts continue to change their shape
 

Robin L

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I guess what I'm saying is that some pleasure just requires some work, or at least some sustained mindful attention. I once took a float trip down a portion of the Mississippi, which at the time seemed cool enough but in hindsight feels like an even more moving experience than I appreciated at the time. It wasn't like a Moab whitewater rafting trip with rapids that gets your adrenaline going and stunning scenery that takes your breath away, but the mighty and still somewhat wild Mississippi, with its muddy water and reedy banks, made its own deep impression. Perhaps that's why I so enjoy Smetana's Moldau, an ode to a river which, while devoid of dance-friendly rhythms or catchy hooks, never fails to evoke a sense of traveling down a lovely, at times serene and others wild, river. It's not something I could properly enjoy while driving my car, sorting through my mail or sitting in a bar with some friends, but at the right time and in the right mood it's a far more emotional experience than 99% of what I hear on the radio.
One of the first pieces of "Classical" music I really dug was Smetana's Moldau. The first was the Duke Ellington version of the Nutcracker Suite:


But your story brings me to:

 

pwjazz

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The genre I've never really managed to get into is Jazz, as with any genre it's a bit silly to talk about liking or not liking jazz given the diversity in the form but whereas I find it easy to find and like new orchestral and operatic music I find it difficult to like jazz and I've found really very few that I genuinely like. My former boss was obsessed with jazz (as obsessed as I am with Bruckner or Schubert) and he tried a few times to enthuse me. He used to put jazz on in his office if he had to work late after most people had gone home and if I was also working late I'd listen and sometimes I must admit I enjoyed it but more often than not it did nothing for me. Yet his passion for jazz was undeniable and it clearly did give him a lot of joy.

It's funny, I love Jazz, I used to play in a Jazz band, and I'm excited to be seeing GoGo Penguin live for the first time tomorrow, yet if I randomly walk into a Jazz club I'll more likely than not dislike what I hear. If I pop into a random Blues club or someplace that has rock or folk music playing, I'll likely enjoy whatever's playing. It doesn't mean that I find those genres better, it just means that they're typically inoffensive and pleasant enough.
 

Ceburaska

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This is a perfect example for a definition of ethno-centric bias, of forcing anything outside one’s own limited world into a definition that fits into it.



Yes, logical proof by association that blues actually originated from “classical” after “mansplaining” what people think of as blues. :facepalm:

BTW, the post that this side thread comes from was not dissing classical but recognizing which components of music was strong and weak in classical. This type of parochial knee-jerk defense based on victimization and projection of ignorance onto others in its extreme form is the root of supremacy movements in history.
Please tell me this is a parody.
 

BigVU's

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I think Rush is Classical. But hey that's just me. I would love to see a reproduction with only orchestra instruments of the 2112 album.

I don't like all rock, pop, jazz, and classical for that matter. I do like them in many ways when they connect with me. Even a tenor opera section can strike a chord with me.

I'm cool with the dissertation by the OP, though I speculate dangerously there is a hidden agenda to find some justification for wanting to add Classical to their music collection. Some where in the chronological space and time Classical inspired music today.

Peace.
 

ahofer

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Brahms’ piano quintet in F minor is what string instrumentalists call a “warhorse”, meaning it is played a lot, and is an archetype of the genre. I found myself humming a few bars just now. It illustrates many of my points made upthread. I was humming the third movement, which is particularly syncopation-heavy.

Oh my, the second movement. It always makes me cry. The syncopation and hesitations in the accompaniment to the primary theme enhance its poignancy.
 
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Cosmik

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András Schiff resists the notion that the op 111 c minor sonata has "Boogie-Woogie", but it's safe to say that Schiff sees no need to emphasize the similarities. Your own ears will help you reach your own conclusions:
And yet, straightforward "Boogie Woogie" appeals to many more people than Beethoven. Put some Beethoven on your gramophone and most people will yawn. Put some Jools Holland on (I'm not a fan, myself) and many more of them will be smiling and loving the music. What does that tell us? That Beethoven could have churned out boogie woogie by the bucket load but resisted the populist route because he didn't want his music to be enjoyed by common people? Or that Jools Holland is more of a genius than Beethoven because his music has more appeal to more people?
 

Cosmik

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Tonight my wife and I tentatively started to watch a British sci-fi film called The Terrornauts, made in 1966. To give you an idea of the quality of this film, here is the poster:

1570918317317.png

(we happen to like old stuff, and we'd recorded it so thought we'd give it a go).

However, within a few seconds of the ultra-trashy start, I said "The music's pretty good". It turns out that it was by a proper classical composer called Elisabeth Lutyens:
Born in London in 1906, and known for her adaptation of the Schoenbergian serial technique, Elisabeth Lutyens influenced serialism in British music both past and present. Highly regarded by her peers, not least by Igor Stravinsky, Elisabeth was and remains a respected avant-garde artist, and an innovator of serialism itself.
...During her time at the Royal College of Music, Elisabeth joined with a small group of other female students devoted to modern music; it was here she encountered the works of Britten, and was influenced by continuous flow of Renaissance music.
It seems she made ends meet by doing film music without being too picky. But you could hear, even in this low budget film, that she had integrity and was actually composing interesting music to fit the scenes.
 
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ahofer

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And then let’s go older for some incredibly rhythmically compelling pieces with elaborate syncopation:

-Scarlatti sonata in G major kk 13, g minor Kk 4; Kk. 35
-Bach English Suite no.3- Gigue
-Chopin Waltz in A-flat Opus 24
-Schubert-Moments Musicaux D. 780(4th piece)

Ralph Kirkpatrick, who famously catalogued Scarlatti’s work (and was related to my wife), said “Nearly all of Scarlatti’s work is rich in syncopation that sometimes play the role of cross accents and sometimes frankly represent displacements of pulse”

re. Jazz-most of my own theory knowledge comes
mostly from two semesters at Berklee College of Music, where I studied guitar and arranging, although I did take traditional theory as well. I also played in big bands in high school and college and the Berklee studio band for the semesters I was there. All of that significantly deepened my appreciation for the classical tradition, as it did for many of my classmates. I love most jazz, although I can’t say I’m likely to put the likes of Ornette Coleman, Anthony Braxton, etc. on my system much.
If you’ve heard Bill Charlap interpret a ballad-now that’s something.
 
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ahofer

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And yet, straightforward "Boogie Woogie" appeals to many more people than Beethoven. Put some Beethoven on your gramophone and most people will yawn. Put some Jools Holland on (I'm not a fan, myself) and many more of them will be smiling and loving the music. What does that tell us? That Beethoven could have churned out boogie woogie by the bucket load but resisted the populist route because he didn't want his music to be enjoyed by common people? Or that Jools Holland is more of a genius than Beethoven because his music has more appeal to more people?

I don’t think you can rip either one out of context for a counterfactual and get much out of it. However, Beethoven’s Music has survived and been loved, studied, and performed for a long time, through many different cultures around the world.
 

Cosmik

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Beethoven’s Music has survived and been loved, studied, and performed for a long time, through many different cultures around the world.
This is true, but I feel it is similar to circuses and libraries: people think they are 'good for you' even if irrelevant. Circuses continue to tour and parents think their kids will benefit from them just as their parents thought they should (but didn't). Libraries continue to be built at vast expense even though they are really just 0.000001% of the internet in paper form. The fact they're an ordeal to endure is supposed to be good for you.
 

ahofer

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This is true, but I feel it is similar to circuses and libraries: people think it is 'good for you' even if irrelevant. Circuses continue to tour and parents think their kids will benefit from them just as their parents thought they should (but didn't). They continue to build libraries at vast expense even though they are really just 0.000001% of the internet in paper form.

sadly, this is true for some. Of museums as well. “High culture” can be an acquired or even faked taste (see also Ornette Coleman in my other post-I think some people just say they like it to be cool) But there are hardcore Beethoven lovers in pretty large numbers as well.
 

LuckyLuke575

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I've been wanting for a long time to unload all my issues with classical music, but didn't really find a judgment-free platform to do it on. From my short time as a reader in this forum, I believe there are enough people here who are classical music enthusiasts that are capable of having a relaxed and intelligent discussion about this topic. I just want to say ahead of time that I have no intention of personally hurting anyone, and what I write here represents my opinions alone (and possibly other people like me, but here I only speak for myself). And most importantly, I write here in the hope of changing my mind and maybe realize things I haven't known or thought of before.

As a starting point, this rant is somewhat a continuation of this old thread:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ou-get-everyone-to-like-classical-music.1729/

I wanted to respond to the question in that thread's title with my view on the subject as a relatively young person (29) that has been exposed many times to classical music, but has never been able to take any interest in it. And I'm not talking about hearing some accidental Mozart on the radio. My father (and also my mother to a lesser degree) is a huge classical music buff with a massive CD collection that I've heard in its entirety probably multiple times through the course of my life, as he played it in the house and in his car. I've been to several classical concerts with my parents, and even at operas (at Verona amphitheatre no less). I took piano lessons through my childhood, and can recognize by name quite a few classical pieces, and some of the easier ones I knew how to play at some point (forgot all my training by now though).

And despite all of this (or possibly because all of this…), I really hate classical music. I never listen to it by my own free will, I avoid concerts like the plague, and every time I tried to listen to something classical that might be "the one" to turn me, I got bored super-fast and didn't make it all the way through. There is no period or composer or instrument that can make me sit all the way through a piece. Music from the modern period and early periods (baroque and earlier) are especially agonizing, while to the romantic and classical periods I can listen as background music if I must. Opera and anything with singers sound completely horrible to me.

Now, it's not an issue with the music itself, so to speak (more on this later). I don't have allergy to violins and I don't mind listening to a solo piano (I do specifically hate opera-style singing, but that's not the majority of classical music anyway). And when a classical piece is adapted to a different genre, such as jazz or rock, I can comfortably sit and listen to it all the way through. I can find myself whistling classical tunes to myself occasionally because they are so engrained in my memory.

No, the first major obstacle of classical music, is the culture of classical music. That concept encapsulates so many practices that are very alienating to anyone not coming from inside that culture.

It starts with how a lot of classical music listeners and players perceive themselves and the music they play. It's no coincidence that it's common to categorize anything that is not classical music as pop-music. There is something about the attitude of the classical music people that is condescending and self-elevating. They commonly consider their music as more sophisticated, complex, deep, human, etc, than the "popular" genres of music. Some consider classical music "universal", as if it captures something more real or basic about humanity, and thus every human can relate to it. From my point of view, classical music is merely older, that's it. The virtue of age does not make it any truer, in the same way that old religions aren't truer because of their antiquity, and old science practices aren’t more accurate because they precede the current ones. It is true that a large part of today's musical understanding and composing practices derives from what was learned by classical composers, but in the same time there are a lot of aspects to modern music that have no root in classical music. And on top of that, classical music is merely a western concept after all, and it's hardly universal to people outside Europe and the US.

Another strange aspect of the culture, is the listening habits. Listening at home is indeed not a very different affair from listening to any other genre, apart from the average lengthiness of the pieces. But listening to a performance is a whole different beast. You need to dress up whether you are a spectator of a performer, go to a huge concert hall and sit totally quietly for hours at a time, clapping at the appropriate moments. The performers themselves are dressed like they are about to get married, and usually play with all these weird unnatural mannerisms. Of course these concerts are usually quite pricey, and to fully enjoy the pieces one should be deeply familiar with them and maintain focus for the duration of the performance. Although from my experiences, apart from the very lively conductor or soloist on stage, the audience usually resembles more of a funeral crowd than one that is engaged with the music they are listening to. It's such a different experience from any other modern music listening experience, that it's very hard to accustom yourself to it if you are used to go to 'normal' pop and rock concerts. And I don't see anything deeper of more profound in that way of experiencing live music. Sitting stiffly and quietly in a chair seems a lot less profound than standing, moving, dancing, and physically engaging with the music you are hearing.

The final cultural weirdness is the separation between composer and performer. It's to be expected from a genre whose composers mostly past away years ago and require many dozens of players to play most of its repertoire. But still, the fact that you not only need to find the right piece, but also the right performance in the right venue with the right orchestra being conducted by the right conductor, in order to listen to the truest or best form of that piece… it makes things very frustrating. The fact that there is not 'definite' version of a piece (akin to the album version of a song), puts more steps in the way of an uninitiated person's ability to appreciate the actual music itself.

That brings me to the minor but still crucial obstacle preventing me from actually appreciating classical music – the music. As I said before, there are pieces that I can enjoy humming and don't mind listening to in the background, and the instruments of the genre are fine by themselves. I love film scores and they are made of the same instruments and arranging techniques of classical music. The major issue I have is, for a lack of a better word, the overall blandness.

There is some percentage of classical music that is instantly catchy and widely recognizable, but the core repertoire is made of numerous symphonies and concertos that are mostly drone out and downright boring. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the type to stick to just short catchy songs. Most of my favorite music is made of long and complex prog-rock, jazz and metal pieces and songs, that take multiple listens to fully appreciate, and sometimes require deep understanding in musical theory to get to the bottom of. I am no stranger to deep diving into an intricate musical piece and exploring it to its fullest. I enjoy loud and energetic music as much as quiet and emotional one, and neither dynamics nor emotional content scares me.

But every time I hear a classical piece, huge chunks of musical potential are simply missing. The rhythmic content of these pieces is plain and groove-less. The harmonic content is often too consonant to a point of predictability, and every 'experimental' aspect of harmony or melody is very primitive compared to even the simplest of jazz or prog-rock. The constraints of the same typical orchestral instruments in all the pieces leads to dynamics that are pretty limited in their expression – they can't convey the exploding emotional effects of an electronic bass drop or searing guitar solos. The very long pieces like symphonies seem to me like they could be shortened by 80% while not losing any of the actual interesting parts. Most of it is transitions leading to build ups leading to wind downs and so forth without a real point to it all. And for some reason, modern classical music went deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole of heady academic avant-garde, instead of trying to produce music that actually connect with people that don't have a bachelor degree in music. I see no justification in any art form that is produced to be consumed by only its producer.

Those are the main reasons why I don't like classical music. But this is frustrating, because I want to like it. I know that a lot of the modern music that I consume (whether prog-rock or films scores) was inspired by classical music. I hear all the people that tell about their transcendent experiences from listening to it, and I really believe them that they had those experiences, while I can't imagine having those myself listening to this music. It's not that I'm not getting all the emotional and spiritual fulfillment one needs from the music I listen to, because I do. But if there is something more to explore that I haven't been able to, it makes me feel like I'm missing out on a whole range of new possible musical sensations. From the little classical pieces that I do like, I can tell there is untapped potential for enjoyment, that is so far have laid just out of reach. The obstacles I listed above are not easy to overcome, but I hope there is a way to do so that will start me on a journey of rediscovery of this genre of music.

Thank you for your time, to whoever managed to read up to this point. Your thoughts, suggestions, and objections are welcome :)
Is there a TL;DR version?
 

Cosmik

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sadly, this is true for some. Of museums as well. “High culture” can be an acquired or even faked taste (see also Ornette Coleman in my other post-I think some people just say they like it to be cool) But there are hardcore Beethoven lovers in pretty large numbers as well.
How do you distinguish between the two?
 

ahofer

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