A millennial's rant on classical music

[oivavoi]

Most indigenous music all over the world are far more interesting rhythmically with syncopation being the norm. Syncopation makes music interesting by introducing dissonance that resolve into consonance to release the built up tension. Classical music with some few exceptions has no syncopation instead relying on melodic and harmonic variations for creating tension and release.

Pop music also used to have a lot of rhythmic variations (with changes and breaks if not syncopation) but the emergence of disco killed it where pop music became background music for dancing primarily and not for sit down listening. That influence still persists.

Latin, African and Asian Indian rhythms are far more complex and aurally interesting (and challenging) than Western Classical.

(....)

There is far more to melody than if it is catchy. Making something catchy actually requires a lot of simplification and a single dimension. Classical music tends to get its melodic richness from layers and contrasting voices even when it restricts itself to the simple well-tempered diatonic scales (although it was a lot more interesting in its origins in medieval times with use of modal scales). And because classical music tends to mix melody with rich harmonic content, it is difficult to hum most of them to make it catchy for an average person. Can’t keep humming Fur Elise all the time.

Other indigenous music in the world are far more complex in scales but usually linear rather than layered. But the scales again like syncopation in rhythm rely on dissonant notes in passing more than classical.

In pop music, progressive groups like Steely Dan or King Crimson have dissonance as well as layers to create interest. But the European composers were really geniuses in weaving voices together that is very unique.

(....)
Classical music has a much richer harmonic construction than most music from its origins in harmonic church music voices of the medieval era translated into instruments. The richness comes from the brilliant layering and juxtaposition of instruments sometimes reinforcing, sometimes as a counterpoint. This is what probably contributes most to the appeal of classical music along with layering of melodies. Most other music with a few exceptions tend be far less complex in harmonic structure but more adventurous in going out of the diatonic scales. Anyone who has tried to play Steely Dan probably understands the complexity of their harmonic structures and yet it sounds deceptively simple. Most pop music is very limited in harmony.

A wide variety in all forms to generalize or compare. Classical music can go from a single instrument to a full size orchestra. Maturing at a time with no amplification contributed to use of large orchestral ensembles for impact.

(...)
The bottom line is that each type of music has different type of appeal and function and while it can be analyzed academically like the above, the perception and enjoyment depends a lot on familiarity and exposure to variety. Nobody likes every form of music and there are devoted fans for every type of music.

I know I'm bumping this thread, but just wanted to say that this is an exceptionally perceptive comment not only about classical music, but about different genres of music generally and the differences between them. This aligns completely with my own views, as someone who appreciates (and occasionally performs) music ranging from classical to various kinds of indigenous music to contemporary pop music. But I would never have been able to express it this clearly. It is rare to meet people with such an insight into so many different musical genres. I stand enlightened.

 

[Zog]

I love it!! Needs me a bagpipe (and a new wife)!

Yep, I get that. I've done that upgrade - very expensive though!

 

[Fluffy]

I revive this thread from the dead to bring a very interesting perspective on the place of the Western Canon of classical music today

 

[Feanor]

So, @Fluffy, I surmise you don't like Classical music, (or any of its numerous sub-genre either). Glad you explained all at excruciating length. I see your OP was back before the COVID-19 lockdown so it's hard to imagine where you found time or energy.

Deviant that I am, 98% of my listening is to Classical. There are other genres that I tolerate once in a while, e.g. certain Jazz, but many others I hate as much as you seem to Classical. However you'll be just as glad that I don't intent to go on at length about them.

I suppose there was an era where there was prestige associated with (pretending to) liking Classical music. But don't worry that's long gone. For my part I never participated in the "long hair" music era, (oh the irony of that phrase). Personally I came from a family of truly remarkable indifference to music in general. I succumbed to the charms of Classical in my mid-20s; that came about at a time of enduring interest in popular '60s & '70 Folk music -- my interest in Folk music waned decades ago, but my Classical interest endures.

 

[MRC01]

That Youtube video sounds like deconstructivism applied to music. He makes a few good points, but they're mixed with a lot of politicially motivated nonsense.

The reason I love Beethoven's music, and that of many other classical composers, is because I find it compelling both emotionally and intellectually. IMO, this is a key component of artistic merit. I sometimes find this in jazz, and to a lesser extent rock and other genres, and I love it just as much when I find it there. Yet I find it in these other genres less frequently. And I don't find it in all classical music, I just find it there more often than in other genres.

Here I use the word "classical" in a general sense, covering early music, renaissance, baroque, classical, romantic, etc.

 

[REK2575]

Well, got about half way through that before the machine-gun-fire pace of gross oversimplifications and utterly unsubstantiated generalizations became too much to bear.

Where exactly is this group of close-minded know-it-alls who insist that Beethoven was "the greatest composer" of all time and will brook no argument on the matter? I've never met any of them. That's because the whole thing is a vapid straw-man argument.

Look, if the claim were instead, "Beethoven plays too large a role in the classical repertory -- especially the programming of major symphony orchestras -- and it is time for orchestras and performers to give other composers -- especially contemporary composers -- a more prominent place in their programs" -- that's an argument that can very reasonably be made. I'd make it, and I'm someone who loves Beethoven's music with all my heart and soul. This is something that Alex Ross has been writing about with tremendous eloquence and erudition for years in the New Yorker.

Anyway, "Beethoven sucks at music" is a click-bait title that I fell for. Should've known better.

 

[maverickronin]

I revive this thread from the dead to bring a very interesting perspective on the place of the Western Canon of classical music today

So...basically everything he said was true...

Except he only explained why most (but not all) classical music fans are stuck up. Classic clickbiat.

 

[Frank Dernie]

So, @Fluffy, I surmise you don't like Classical music, (or any of its numerous sub-genre either). Glad you explained all at excruciating length. I see your OP was back before the COVID-19 lockdown so it's hard to imagine where you found time or energy.

Deviant that I am, 98% of my listening is to Classical. There are other genres that I tolerate once in a while, e.g. certain Jazz, but many others I hate as much as you seem to Classical. However you'll be just as glad that I don't intent to go on at length about them.

I suppose there was an era where there was prestige associated with (pretending to) liking Classical music. But don't worry that's long gone. For my part I never participated in the "long hair" music era, (oh the irony of that phrase). Personally I came from a family of truly remarkable indifference to music in general. I succumbed to the charms of Classical in my mid-20s; that came about at a time of enduring interest in popular '60s & '70 Folk music -- my interest in Folk music waned decades ago, but my Classical interest endures.

You could be writing about my development in musical interest, we are a matched pair,though I still listen to folk music and quite like some dance music, when I feel like dancing.

Well, got about half way through that before the machine-gun-fire pace of gross oversimplifications and utterly unsubstantiated generalizations became too much to bear.

Where exactly is this group of close-minded know-it-alls who insist that Beethoven was "the greatest composer" of all time and will brook no argument on the matter? I've never met any of them. That's because the whole thing is a vapid straw-man argument.

Look, if the claim were instead, "Beethoven plays too large a role in the classical repertory -- especially the programming of major symphony orchestras -- and it is time for orchestras and performers to give other composers -- especially contemporary composers -- a more prominent place in their programs" -- that's an argument that can very reasonably be made. I'd make it, and I'm someone who loves Beethoven's music with all my heart and soul. This is something that Alex Ross has been writing about with tremendous eloquence and erudition for years in the New Yorker.

Anyway, "Beethoven sucks at music" is a click-bait title that I fell for. Should've known better.

My sentiment exactly.

 

[ahofer]

Huh, it's kind of a "who died and made you (vague) the decider of greatness". I couldn't get through it either, due to the delivery and weird drawing thing, but I would say the enduring popularity of Beethoven's music is a kind of test, that his music has survived. Furthermore, people defer to experts who can tell you at length about the incredible inventiveness of Beethoven and the other giants' work (I recommend seeing Rob Kapilow do "What Makes it Great" live). So they are indeed kingmakers, but not for nothing. And then there is the respect accorded by other composers. Brahms, for instance, put off his first symphony for ages in fear of living up to Beethoven, and incorporated an obviously Beethovenian theme in the third movement as a climactic moment in the piece. Mahler felt and acted similarly. So, as in many matters, we defer to those who 'ought to know' by their dedication to the art form.

There is certainly music that is intellectually brilliant but touches relatively few hearts. For me, that would be most of Serialism or 12-Tone music, the school of composition started by Schoenberg (himself a huge fan of Beethoven) after, thankfully, he composed Verklarte Nacht. Beethoven reached hearts and minds.

Picking who is THE greatest is sort of silly. I'd say, for instance, that Paul McCartney is kind of an amazing composer, especially given his lack of theory training. But within the classical tradition, there's little doubt that Beethoven stands with a few giants.

I'm not the target market for that post, obviously, as I'm familiar with, and listen regularly to, a lot of Beethoven, not just the 'warhorses', as he suggests. Beethoven's string quartets and piano sonatas both stand, just as much as his symphonies, as historically exceptional bodies of work on their own.

 

[Feanor]

So...basically everything he said was true...

Except he only explained why most (but not all) classical music fans are stuck up. Classic clickbiat.

Say what!! Classical music fans are "stuck up"? Hell no, non-Classical fans have inferiority feelings, maybe.

 

[ahofer]

Say what!! Classical music fans are "stuck up"? Hell no, non-Classical fans have inferiority feelings, maybe.

Heh. Well, fans may be a bit, although mostly they are older folks, at least in NYC. But classical musicians, and I've met hundreds, are almost never stuck up. If you wanted to pick a group of grounded, nice folks, classical musicians would be a good place to start. I think your personality comes through in your playing. I think perhaps there is a humility that comes of the work and competition required to be a successful classical musician.

The best example is Yo-Yo Ma. I've met and talked with him twice. He is the nicest, humblest, most genuine person you could meet, and the biggest star in classical music. When you see him play live, you can see him transported, and inviting you with him.

 

[Frank Dernie]

So...basically everything he said was true...

Except he only explained why most (but not all) classical music fans are stuck up. Classic clickbiat.

I have had the opposite experience. People basically saying "The sort of music I like is fantastic and stuff I don't like is rubbish" rather than accepting differences in taste. There are far, FAR more of those hating classical music and keen to say so than the other way round IME.
I don't care what other people enjoy.
I just listen to what I enjoy, which is quite varied, Bach and Mahler (and other end of 19th century stuff) are favourites but so is folk and metal. I still play some of the LPs I bought in my youth, though most fail the test of time.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Heh. Well, fans may be a bit, although mostly they are older folks, at least in NYC. But classical musicians, and I've met hundreds, are almost never stuck up. If you wanted to pick a group of grounded, nice folks, classical musicians would be a good place to start. I think your personality comes through in your playing. I think perhaps there is a humility that comes of the work and competition required to be a successful classical musician.

The best example is Yo-Yo Ma. I've met and talked with him twice. He is the nicest, humblest, most genuine person you could meet, and the biggest star in classical music. When you see him play live, you can see him transported, and inviting you with him.

My experience too.
My wife is a musician so a huge number of our friends are too. Not one of them "stuck up".
Can't talk for foreign concert goers of course, I don't know any.

 

[scott wurcer]

My experience too.
My wife is a musician so a huge number of our friends are too. Not one of them "stuck up".
Can't talk for foreign concert goers of course, I don't know any.

IME "stuck up" simply means having no interest in the latest pop music.

 

[Robin L]

IME "stuck up" simply means having no interest in the latest pop music.

I think that means one is growing old. Memory almost full and all that.

I've experienced a few classical music snobs, but very rarely among the performers, who are usually also interested in new music of various sorts. Most people "into" classical music are also interested in lots of other types of music.

In general, the more you know, the more you know.

 

[Frank Dernie]

IME "stuck up" simply means having no interest in the latest pop music.

Really???????
In English English stuck up means snooty, condescending, snobbish etc.

 

[maverickronin]

Say what!! Classical music fans are "stuck up"?

You see it all the time in audiophile and gear forums. One person lists their test tracks and another person complains about them because they don't include A) a full symphony orchestra B) some kind of minimally produced chamber music or C) some kind of minimally produced "audiophile" recording from a more modern genre like jazz or singer/songwriter and then go on to say that you can't properly evaluate audio gear without their preferred genre of music.

Two out of three of the usual suspects are "classical" so I'd say the shoe fits. Of particular hilarity is when some people, apparently with an entire broom closet up their ass, will refer to anything modern as "popular" whether it's a waning century old genre or an incredibly niche modern sub-sub-genre.

It the "high" vs "low" art distinction mentioned in the video, which is basically people's inability to not universalize their individual tastes to transcendent standards plus classisim, peer pressure, and inertia.

Personally I know there is a lot of classical music that I do like and would like, but collecting it and adding it to my regular rotation is something I've never been able to get into, partly because its classification paradigm is so different and I know I'm missing out.

But classical musicians, and I've met hundreds, are almost never stuck up

My experience too.
My wife is a musician so a huge number of our friends are too. Not one of them "stuck up".

Yeah, I'm definitely talking about audiophiles and not musicians.

 

[scott wurcer]

Really???????
In English English stuck up means snooty, condescending, snobbish etc.

Sorry I meant that when someone dismisses the latest pop music without any attitude they still are immediately accused of being a stuck up snob.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I revive this thread from the dead to bring a very interesting perspective on the place of the Western Canon of classical music today

Well, that was certainly annoying. Some things in life aren't worth arguing about. Yes, Beethoven is great. Yes, most of the accepted classical repertoire is great. Yes, most classical concerts are stuffy affairs. Yes the art form has a museum-like quality to it. It's the only art form I can think of that doesn't feature accessible modern creations--dance, musical theater, popular music, cinema, are constantly changing and vibrant. And no, classical music per se will probably never be widely popular.

I've taught music appreciation at the college level, and I never expected to, or succeeded in, getting students to like classical music who weren't already predisposed to identify with it. I think most of the explanation is genetic. Some people just like the pure sound of an acoustic instrument, the trained human voice, the discipline of formal structure and accurate performance, and the complexities of instrumentation and thematic development, To stereotype just a bit, Zack the quarterback is simply never going to like classical music. Popular music, on the other hand, relies more on explicit sexual and romantic themes, plus raw energy and driving rhythm, and in some cases catchy tunes (which is an art in itself--go try it sometime). Virtually all popular music features vocalists, because that's the natural way to channel what is popular about popular music. The main source of vocal material in classical music is opera, and it has the smallest classical audience. That's not to say there isn't any middle ground. Although I just don't relate to most pop music (anything with strong melodic content and interesting lhrics excepted), my favorite pop-rock selection is the instrumental riff from the Doors' Light My Fire. It combines many of the attributes of the classical form with the pure drive and sexuality of rock (or however you would characterize that particular piece).

 

[q3cpma]

I hold the quite reviled position (these days) that aesthetics (i.e. objective beauty) and taste aren't the same, and recognize that music reached its peak during the romantic era with people like Strauss, Beethoven, Wagner, Rimsky-Korsakov, Dukas followed by the more experimental Stravinsky, Debussy or Ravel. But that peak was just the result of a civilisational/cultural peak and the zeitgeist it captured simply isn't anymore. I'm of the opinion that the current European zeitgeist is made of despair and hatred, so extreme metal is the romantic music of today; quite the "coincidence" too that this genre is almost exclusively European.
Not here to discuss the ideological/political parts, just trying to (maybe) help some people understand their relation with classical music; I know it's a dick move to claim something with some off-topic roots while saying "no need for more off-topic discussion", but please indulge me.

PS: the classical period of classical music mostly bores me to death, and baroque is just a bit better