A millennial's rant on classical music

[Cosmik]

I'm quite fond of Smile Away. My all time fave Beatles tune is "You Know My Name". Because it was the B side of "Hey Jude" I used to pile my quarters into the juke box and make everyone else listen to it.

When I was a kid, I remember sitting and laughing and laughing and laughing at that record. Could 'Ed Sheeran' and his mates create something like that? I don't think so.

 

[Sal1950]

De gustibus non est disputandum

Wouldn't just saying it in English good enough rather than to use a dead language?
Must be a Classical music fan.

De gustibus non est disputandum, or de gustibus non disputandum est, is a Latin maxim meaning "In matters of taste, there can be no disputes" (literally "about tastes, it should not be disputed/discussed"). .

 

[Cosmik]

"In matters of taste, there can be no disputes" (literally "about tastes, it should not be disputed/discussed"). .

What if tax payers' money is being spent on 'the arts'? Is it right to spend cash on culture that is not to the taste of most tax payers? And if it was proposed to do so, might then a dispute not arise?

 

[Sal1950]

And if it was proposed to do so, might then a dispute not arise?

Yes, and rightfully so.

 

[ahofer]

Could never get over the feeling that these were vanity projects. It doesn't help that I lost interest in his pop music after Ram. With everything on streaming, I suppose I don't have any excuse now not to sample them. I can only find a suite for the Liverpool Oratorio, though.

Standing Stone is on Tidal. Can’t say I liked the first few...movements?

 

[ahofer]

What if tax payers' money is being spent on 'the arts'? Is it right to spend cash on culture that is not to the taste of most tax payers? And if it was proposed to do so, might then a dispute not arise?

Totally with you here. I don’t understand why government should subsidize the arts at all. I have to say that quietly, though, since my wife is the museum director at a major NY arts institution.

I also think arts institutions are a little cynical about this. Back in the 1980s and 1990s, NY museums seemed to be deliberately putting provocative works in their exhibits (Piss Christ, Dung Madonna) in order to get Al D’Amato, Jesse Helms, or Rudy Giuliani worked up. Free publicity and boosted attendance were the certain result. Andres Serrano wouldn’t be half as famous but for Piss Christ.

 

[Robin L]

What do people think of Mcartney’s Liverpool Oratorio and Standing Stone?

McCartney wants the accolades that come with expanding into "Classical" music. But he never had the chops for it. Can't/won't read music, and like other folk attempting this sort of "art music", can't orchestrate himself out of a paper bag. Zappa would make similar mistakes, but actually had some technical facility for post-romantic concert music. But Zappa really "whipped it out" on the Synclavier, that was part of the problem; attempting these difficult, speedy, musical lines on instruments where such phrases played at such speeds was not really possible.

 

[Old Listener]

I've been wanting for a long time to unload all my issues with classical music, but didn't really find a judgment-free platform to do it on.





No, the first major obstacle of classical music, is the culture of classical music. That concept encapsulates so many practices that are very alienating to anyone not coming from inside that culture.

It starts with how a lot of classical music listeners and players perceive themselves and the music they play. It's no coincidence that it's common to categorize anything that is not classical music as pop-music. There is something about the attitude of the classical music people that is condescending and self-elevating. They commonly consider their music as more sophisticated, complex, deep, human, etc, than the "popular" genres of music. Some consider classical music "universal", as if it captures something more real or basic about humanity, and thus every human can relate to it. From my point of view, classical music is merely older, that's it. The virtue of age does not make it any truer, in the same way that old religions aren't truer because of their antiquity, and old science practices aren’t more accurate because they precede the current ones. It is true that a large part of today's musical understanding and composing practices derives from what was learned by classical composers, but in the same time there are a lot of aspects to modern music that have no root in classical music. And on top of that, classical music is merely a western concept after all, and it's hardly universal to people outside Europe and the US.

Another strange aspect of the culture, is the listening habits. Listening at home is indeed not a very different affair from listening to any other genre, apart from the average lengthiness of the pieces. But listening to a performance is a whole different beast. You need to dress up whether you are a spectator of a performer, go to a huge concert hall and sit totally quietly for hours at a time, clapping at the appropriate moments. The performers themselves are dressed like they are about to get married, and usually play with all these weird unnatural mannerisms. Of course these concerts are usually quite pricey, and to fully enjoy the pieces one should be deeply familiar with them and maintain focus for the duration of the performance. Although from my experiences, apart from the very lively conductor or soloist on stage, the audience usually resembles more of a funeral crowd than one that is engaged with the music they are listening to. It's such a different experience from any other modern music listening experience, that it's very hard to accustom yourself to it if you are used to go to 'normal' pop and rock concerts. And I don't see anything deeper of more profound in that way of experiencing live music. Sitting stiffly and quietly in a chair seems a lot less profound than standing, moving, dancing, and physically engaging with the music you are hearing.

Two words that characterize the classical music "culture": respect and self-restraint.

Most people attend classical music concerts to hear the music without distraction. They may have only one chance to hear the particular works played by these musicians. Having their chance ruined by someone nearby making noise or distracting listeners by "standing, moving, dancing, and physically engaging with the music you are hearing" is an unnecessary shame.

So the culture asks attendees to show respect for the music, for the musicians and for the other people attending the event.

If you aren't willing to exercise self restraint, just don't go to classical music concerts. You and the people who attend will be happier.

---
Appreciation for classical music is alive and well in Japan, Taiwan, Korea and China.

 

[Frank Dernie]

McCartney wants the accolades that come with expanding into "Classical" music. But he never had the chops for it. Can't/won't read music, and like other folk attempting this sort of "art music", can't orchestrate himself out of a paper bag. Zappa would make similar mistakes, but actually had some technical facility for post-romantic concert music. But Zappa really "whipped it out" on the Synclavier, that was part of the problem; attempting these difficult, speedy, musical lines on instruments where such phrases played at such speeds was not really possible.

I am a fan of lots of Zappa stuff, King Kong with Jean-Luc Ponty in particular. Hot Rats is a "desert Island" disc for me too.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

What a bizarre thread. Imo, there is something wrong with your brain that you somehow find classical music so displeasing.

 

[Robin L]

I am a fan of lots of Zappa stuff, King Kong with Jean-Luc Ponty in particular. Hot Rats is a "desert Island" disc for me too.
View attachment 36412

My personal favorite, particularly the final track, "Jonestown", performed on the Synclavier.

This folds back on the OP: this too can be regarded as "Classical". To my mind, "Classical" is Haydn, Mozart, early Beethoven. Not only is this music "Post-Romantic" and "Post-Tonal", it is also "Post-Concert Hall", at least the Synclavier works.

That line between "Classical" and everything else creates a "Straw-Man" argument, not to mention "True Scotsman"—He's a Rock Guitarist/He's a Post-Modern Composer/He's a Major League Social Irritant, he's all of the above.

I'm a musical omnivore, don't really care what the genre is. I'm with Duke Ellington, music can be divided into two categories, the stuff I like and all that other stuff.

 

[Sal1950]

I'm a musical omnivore, don't really care what the genre is. I'm with Duke Ellington, music can be divided into two categories, the stuff I like and all that other stuff.

I'll drink to that.

 

[Sal1950]

Good Classical-Rock merging stuff here,
Symphonic Music of Yes is a 1993 album by the London Philharmonic Orchestra, covering songs of the progressive rock band Yes, with the English Chamber Orchestra and the London Community Gospel Choir. The arrangements were by Dee Palmer. Playing on the album were Yes guitarist Steve Howe and Yes drummer Bill Bruford. Some tracks also featured Yes vocalist Jon Anderson and featured the ABWH additional keyboardist Julian Colbeck

 

[ahofer]

What a bizarre thread. Imo, there is something wrong with your brain that you somehow find classical music so displeasing.

I’m afraid I don’t agree with that.

Bach’s “universal appeal” suggests that people who don’t like Bach are in the minority, but brain damage is not indicated.

 

[Fluffy]

Good Classical-Rock merging stuff here,
Symphonic Music of Yes is a 1993 album by the London Philharmonic Orchestra, covering songs of the progressive rock band Yes, with the English Chamber Orchestra and the London Community Gospel Choir. The arrangements were by Dee Palmer. Playing on the album were Yes guitarist Steve Howe and Yes drummer Bill Bruford. Some tracks also featured Yes vocalist Jon Anderson and featured the ABWH additional keyboardist Julian Colbeck

Nice suggestion! Checked out a couple of tracks from that, not really my cup of tea. And this was recorded way after their prime, the Yes guys that do appear there sounded pretty worn out. If this was recorded 10 years earlier I might have felt differently.

 

[Juhazi]

Fluffy, have you spent time with Youtube videos of classical live performances? They have pretty much opened my eyes. It is so easy to compare performances of same pieces and find out which is your personal favourite.

O' mio various artist s

Rusalka various artists

Baritones

Tenors

vs. Quasthoff

etc. have fun!

 

[Robin L]

On the other hand . . .

 

[TLEDDY]

Wouldn't just saying it in English good enough rather than to use a dead language?
Must be a Classical music fan.

De gustibus non est disputandum, or de gustibus non disputandum est, is a Latin maxim meaning "In matters of taste, there can be no disputes" (literally "about tastes, it should not be disputed/discussed"). .

Saying certain truisms in the original dead language is more fun
Classical music fan... yes.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

I’m afraid I don’t agree with that.

Bach’s “universal appeal” suggests that people who don’t like Bach are in the minority, but brain damage is not indicated.

I respect that you disagree however I never said he had brain damage. I would akin his distaste for classical music the same way a human being somehow would find the natural taste of, salt, and sugar, and fat as being somehow unappealing. There is something inherently plessing in the harmony, in the musical coherence, the form, the function and the structure a classical piece of music provides. The brain cannot help but be mentally stimulated in a pleasurable way by the sounds of a concert, much the same way our brain registers the smells and taste of fat, salt and sweetness. Both are seductive.

That is my take

 

[TLEDDY]

Good Classical-Rock merging stuff here,
Symphonic Music of Yes is a 1993 album by the London Philharmonic Orchestra, covering songs of the progressive rock band Yes, with the English Chamber Orchestra and the London Community Gospel Choir. The arrangements were by Dee Palmer. Playing on the album were Yes guitarist Steve Howe and Yes drummer Bill Bruford. Some tracks also featured Yes vocalist Jon Anderson and featured the ABWH additional keyboardist Julian Colbeck

Please don’t forget Frank Zappa (RIP)