A millennial's rant on classical music

[RayDunzl]

Said "Expert" being Frank Zappa. All I can say is, I like his music, but he ain't no Richard Taruskin.

Ok, I'll give you that.

Maybe he's a little closer to Nicolas Slonimsky.

In fact, he was this close once:

Bonus: Slonimsky's Lexicon of Musical Invective

"Who says the world of classical music is sedate or even dull? Certainly not anyone who has read Nicolas Slonimsky's Lexicon of Musical Invective! This funny, irascible little book details contemporary critical attacks on virtually all of the great musical figures of the past 200 years. Beethoven is here, along with Liszt, Mahler, Schumann, Strauss, Tchaikovsky, and Wagner -- all of whom were skewered by the critics at some point in their careers. No classical music lover (or hater!) will want to live without it."

 

[Robin L]

Why is it necessary to have a reason to like any form of artistic expression beyond the simple ones of emotional engagement, appreciating the aesthetic or just plain taking pleasure from it?

I am not sure I could articulate all of the reasons I like the music I love and even if I tried it would ultimately just come back to whether or not I enjoy listening to it and whether it moves me. My favourite piece of music (at the moment, it changes over time) is Bruckner's 8th, technically I think it is a remarkable work of unsurpassed power that moves between raw power to delicate beauty and with everything in between, with some magnificent melodies and which is not a note too long despite it's length (not even Celibidache's famous recording with the MPO which goes to something like 105 minutes feels a second too long to me). I have multiple recordings, all of which bring something to the table, I think my favourite remains the Karajan performance with the VPO a few months before he died, but I also love the recordings of Schaller, Inbal, Maazel and others (yes, even Celibidache). Do I really need a reason to love this work other than the fact I find it to be profoundly moving, a work of awesome power yet melodic beauty?

Sorry, but we're expecting your dissertation on our desk by 9:00 am, tomorrow morning, minimum 50 pages, double spaced, no larger than 12 pt times-roman in MLA format.

You forgot Furtwängler. Cosmik? If you're still here, check this out:

 

[strangeskies]

not even...105 minutes feels a second too long to me

= good sex.

 

[RayDunzl]

Did I say "bonus"?

 

[StevenEleven]

On the subject of rules and such, consider this very funny video. It pokes fun at the fact that a lot of very popular songs use the same simple chord progression (1-5-6-4-1, and indeed many others use a close relative, 1-5-b7-4. “Lay lady lay”). Indeed, most pop songs use a similar verse-chorus-verse-chorus-Bridge-BIG chorus-verse fade out progression as well, much like a reduced sonata form, but with a bridge instead of the variation section.

I love a lot of these songs. The fact that they lack the harmonic and rhythmic variety of the classical tradition is not a hindrance. I mostly do not get bored.

That is so unbelievably cool. I love the way the audience reacted too. Their emotions getting subtly jerked around from song to song so they just had to laugh.

E-B-csharpminor-A, or in the abstract I-V-vi-IV.

I always thought of I-IV-V-IV or a blues progression as the templates but this is fascinating.

Edit: Just tried out the I-V-flat7(major)-IV for lay lady lay. Too cool! Can we give the flat7(major) credit for being a brief modulation in the key of IV or V? Or is that giving it too much credit?

 

[Robin L]

Ok, I'll give you that.

Maybe he's a little closer to Nicolas Slonimsky.

In fact, he was this close once:

I know. One of my favorite experiences involving KPFA was editing Charles Ahmirkhanian's "Speaking of Music" interview with Nicholas Slonimsky for broadcast. Lots of "uhs", " ums" and stutters to remove. So this was cutting 7 & 1/2 ips tape, razor blade, splicing block and tape. His language, vocabulary, enunciaton and humor are wonderful. Physically, they are close in this photo, close in their evangelism for avant guard "Classical" music as well. Nicholas Slonimsky was astonished upon meeting Zappa: "He seemed like a PERFECTLY NORMAL PERSON!!!!!!"

As a musical historian and musicologist, Nicholas Slonimsky knocks it out of the park. Zappa? Not so much.

PS: Bonus? You bet, a favorite book.

 

[Robin L]

Did I say "bonus"?

" I'd rather have a free bottle in front of me than a pre-frontal lobotomy. "

 

[Willem]

We are looking at historical music, and as a historian I have to say that the past is a foreign country. This already applies to music from a few decades ago, and even more so centuries ago. Professionally, I am interested in that past, and the pretty deep past in particular, but I will never have the illusion that I can feel my way into it. But interessting it is, and without that long time perspective I would feel less human, and certainly less civilized. So my interest covers modern rock music, but also jazz from various periods (the biggest cultural contribution by the US, I think, and a really big one), and so called classical music from various periods, with Bach as my personal favourite. As a historian, however, I always realize the particular social context in which historical music was composed and consumed, and that requires some intellectual effort (perhaps not surprsingly I prefer authentic performances of such music). So I cannot identify with those for whom 'classical' music represents some kind of rejection of the modern world of change and social equality, or serves as a form of social snobbery. But equally, I cannot identify with myopic rants against historical music.

 

[MRC01]

... I wanted to respond to the question in that thread's title with my view on the subject as a relatively young person (29) that has been exposed many times to classical music, but has never been able to take any interest in it. ... Your thoughts, suggestions, and objections are welcome

If you don't like classical music, despite having tried to like it, then don't listen to it! I love classical music, playing it on my stereo, or on my flute (as best I can, as an amateur musician). But I also love other kinds of music, including jazz, blues, rock & heavy metal. I don't like rap or hip-hop, or modern classical music. I don't try to get myself to like them. I just accept that they don't float my boat, and listen to what I do like. There's enough music that I do like, I can't listen to all of it in my lifetime.

However, I never really loved classical music until I got into chamber music and other small ensembles. I never did like the large ensemble symphonic stuff. Perhaps that is a useful tip to try different styles?

 

[Daverz]

Kudos to the group for making an interesting discussion out of the original post. I'm not inclined myself to argue with those who think the reason I don't like the music they like and don't hate the music they hate is that I'm either dumb, ignorant or self-deluded.

 

[ahofer]

That is so unbelievably cool. I love the way the audience reacted too. Their emotions getting subtly jerked around from song to song so they just had to laugh.

E-B-csharpminor-A, or in the abstract I-V-vi-IV.

I always thought of I-IV-V-IV or a blues progression as the templates but this is fascinating.

Edit: Just tried out the I-V-flat7(major)-IV for lay lady lay. Too cool! Can we give the flat7(major) credit for being a brief modulation in the key of IV or V? Or is that giving it too much credit?

you are testing my memory, but I think they called it a substitute or altered dominant at Berklee. Not sure.

Another widely used progression is 1-6-4-5-1, but you’ll notice it has an older feel- 40s era. (Typically played with the appropriate sevenths and other tensions). It is also a jazz standard “turnaround”

 

[Robin L]

Did I say "bonus"?

Bonus:

Nicolas Slonimsky, Speaking Of Music at the Exploratorium in 1987:

https://archive.org/details/SlonimskySOM

 

[MRC01]

Often, when musicians modernize classical music it falls flat. One exception, and of the most powerful vocal performances I've seen is Klaus Nomi singing Purcell's Cold song. If you haven't heard or seen it, find it on YouTube.

 

[ahofer]

When my kids were younger, I wasn’t sure which was worse: Teletubbies or Baby Mozart.

 

[Robin L]

Wonder what ya'll think of this:

 

[Zog]

It's the florid descriptions that simply don't match the reality that baffle me.

Well of course. I agree. But only takes us as far as 'I don't like bad music'. A interesting statement would have been 'It's the florid descriptions that baffle me.' And at your request, some of us may have a go at answering it.

Someone tell me why you like a particular Mozart piece.

Mozart wrote many Piano Concertos. One of the greatest is No. 20 (in D minor from memory) with the catalogue number K466. The reason I like it is because I am gifted. Not a lot but enough that this music makes sense to me. There will be people who don't get it. There will be people (I am one) who need to put in a bit of effort. The reward is there. If you go back to the elements of music, it has the full house: Rhythmically it is intense, and the first movement in particular has a lot of energy. Melodically it is interesting, actually Mozart is known for his fine sense of melody. In terms of orchestration it is not a showpiece but the balance between the piano and orchestra seems impeccable. Harmonically (not my forte) I can say you will not get bored with repetition of just a few chords. Form: This music is so well structured. It has drama and the entrance (and exit) of the piano always comes at the right time. The interplay between the soloist and small orchestra is done with an easy facility. The musical phrases (melody or shorter melodic motifs) always sound welcome when you hear them - again because the piece is so well thought out.

One caveat. A lot of classical music has meaning that is difficult to put into words. Some talk of a musical meaning. A non-classical example is the Song 'When Irish Eyes are Smiling'. There is a lilting sadness in the melody. But the words go: 'The world seems bright and gay'. So the lyrics and the music are at odds. That has an effect of sense. I have heard of the expression 'The tears behind the smile' that seems apposite. In the present case the disconnect between the words and music actually makes it all the sadder. The singer wants to be happy and is actually trying to be happy but we know he is sad. I myself would not use the word 'fail', maybe 'unobtainable'. That a simple example, though difficult enough for me, to find adequate words.

 

[Guermantes]

If you ever get a chance to hear what exists of recordings of North and South American music (and by that I mean the continents) from about 1895-1915 it is utterly fascinating to hear the primordial ooze and the crazy hodgepodge of influences and the bizarre combinations and permutations of the time, from classical to marching bands to African and Latin and Spanish rhythms and ragtime and blue notes and the origins of swing (which were a lot more Latin than you might expect), it is just a thrill ride if you are into that kind of thing. And it takes you into some historical insights too FWIW.

And this is an historical illustration of what @GrimSurfer stated, and was a really excellent and telling point—that musicians (at least most) do not see boundaries in music the way many critics and listeners do. My experience (which I am trying not to bore you with because it is very unimpressive) is that when one expert practitioner of one genre encounters an expert practitioner of another genre what you see is delight and glowing joy and an expression of “how the **** did you do that?”

I went to see Jordi Savall and cohort ("early" music virtuosos) last year in a performance with Mexican group Tembembe Ensamble Continuo that drew on European Baroque and popular Mexican dance sources. Great stuff that firmly put a smile on my face and I had a great chat with Baroque guitarist Xavier Díaz-Latorre afterwards. This article is a good overview of the performance and the philosophy behind it: Savall's view that the history of so-called "Western Art Music" is not one of static museum pieces but about dynamic cross-cultural influences.

 

[ahofer]

“Savall's view that the history of so-called "Western Art Music" is not one of static museum pieces but about dynamic cross-cultural influences.”

That is a good point. Composers in the classical tradition, or “Western Art Music” have pretty consistently sought out folk and foreign influences to incorporate into their work. Perhaps there is an exception in some parts of the German school in the late 19th/early 20th. Many looked down their noses at Dvorak’s interest in incorporating American folk music (less so Czech folk music). Strong anti-Semitic and anti-African strain in that era. Bruckner was a pretty rabid anti-Semite, unfortunately.

 

[Sal1950]

Lets get REAL Classical!

 

[Wombat]

Said "Expert" being Frank Zappa. All I can say is, I like his music, but he ain't no Richard Taruskin.

Thank goodness. I like Frank as Frank.

Who is Richard Taruskin? Ah, the Classical equivalent to Harry Smith and Alan Lomax, i.e. rich-folk music c.f. po' Folk music - historically speaking, of course.